New Jersey Team IRC Meeting 19 September 2007

16:08:55 <harda> Hi, gQuigs.
16:12:07 harda changed topic of #ubuntu-us-nj to: Next Meeting: September 19th, 9-10PM || Topics: Farmers Market Advocacy on Saturday the 22nd and a proposed dapper but fesity release party for Gutsy Gibbon
16:16:22 <gQuigs> hi
16:16:49 <harda> gQuigs: You coming Saturday?
16:17:04 <gQuigs> what time does the fair end?
16:17:10 <harda> 14:00.
16:17:18 <gQuigs> oh
16:17:25 <gQuigs> and what time should I get there?
16:17:39 <harda> gQuigs: Anytime between 08:00 and 14:00.
16:18:01 <gQuigs> 13:59 doesn't seem like it would be very useful
16:18:07 <harda> Although, if I'm still the only person there at 09:00, and if things are either too boring or too exciting, I'll probably leave.
16:18:32 <harda> gQuigs: You could carry *all* of the stuff back to our respective vehicles in order to make up for your tartiness.
16:18:48 <gQuigs> I didn't say I was coming late :{
16:18:50 <gQuigs> :P
16:19:14 <gQuigs> and I might be in and out of the meeting tonight
16:19:22 <harda> You almost alway are. :)
16:19:29 <harda> s/alway/always/
16:24:13 <gQuigs> I might wanna car pool up w/ somebody, as I never have a clue what (if) car I'll have come the weekend
16:25:30 <harda> gQuigs: Bug Joe_CoT.  I live 20 minutes from the market but an hour from you, and since I plan to be at the market at 06:50, I could only pick you up at about 06:00.
16:25:44 <harda> (Which would mean I would have to leave at about 05:00)
16:28:07 <gQuigs> I'm planning on it
16:28:28 <gQuigs> considering he lives within a 2 mile walk from my house
16:31:20 <gQuigs> we still don't have a CHLUG topic do we....
16:31:43 <harda> Nope.  Just like every other month.
16:35:09 <Joe_CoT> hey people. i can take you, gQuigs
16:35:23 <harda> Hi, Joe_CoT.
16:35:55 <Joe_CoT> ahoy!
16:36:55 <Joe_CoT> ok, let's get started. first on the agenda: should we fork the linux kernel? Next: Linux or BSD: who's right? Later: Vi or Emacs? Choose
16:36:59 <gQuigs> Joe_Cot sweet
16:37:49 <gQuigs> Yes, gQuigs OS of Doom, gQuigs is not a recursive acronym
16:38:08 <harda> Heh.
16:38:54 <harda> I was not expecting people to laugh when I told them what GNU meant at SFD.  I had forgotten, a long time ago, that it was supposed to be funny.
16:41:30 <Joe_CoT> haha
16:41:48 <Joe_CoT> my favorite is explaining it, starting at what gtk means.
16:42:25 <Joe_CoT> that's four acronyms there: gtk -> gimp tool kit -> gnu image manipulation program -> gnu's not unix
16:43:20 <harda> If I expected them to laugh at GNU, I would've mentioned HURD (hurd->hird->hurd).
16:45:01 <Joe_CoT> haha. i actually don't know what hurd stands for.
16:45:13 <Joe_CoT> also, you probably didn't want to mention hurd anyway. i try not to ;P
16:46:08 <harda> Hird of Unix-replacing Daemons; Hurd of Interfaces Representing Depth.
16:46:23 <harda> HURD is interesting for a lot of reasons, but I see your point.
16:49:06 jedijf has joined #ubuntu-us-nj
16:49:11 <harda> Hi, jedijf.
16:49:57 <harda> I feel weird greeting people who are already in another channel with me.
16:54:40 <Joe_CoT> also, ARR ye scurvy dogs
16:55:09 <gQuigs> is it talk like a pirate day?
16:56:41 <harda> Noooo!  That's my favourite holiday of the year, and I missed it because I was too busy to pay attention the holidays part of my calendar while I prepared for SFD.
16:56:49 <Joe_CoT> heh
16:56:58 <harda> That's it.  I'm not doing anything else for free software ever again.
16:57:16 <Joe_CoT> i got a reminder for it on my cell phone on sunday. i set myself one every year so i don't forget
16:57:23 <gQuigs> wow
16:57:26 * harda quits ["Damn. Damn. Damn"]
16:57:47 <Joe_CoT> lol
16:58:16 <jedijf> hello
16:58:28 <gQuigs> hi
16:58:41 <harda> Last year I wrote a sed-powered filter that turned all of the text on gnujersey.org into pirate speak.  I had bigger plans this year, and now its too late.
16:58:44 * harda cries
16:59:04 <Joe_CoT> you still have 4 hours
16:59:59 <harda> No.  I'm not going to waste it.  I'm just going to make darn sure I celebrate it next year.
17:01:17 <harda> Also, I'm writing a complaint to the SFD folks for their inconsideration of putting the two events so close together.  Then I'll write a letter to RMS and Linus and see if we can't retcon their GNU and Linux project announcements to months besides September.
17:02:02 <harda> Hmm.  I think Debian was founded in September too; I'll see if Ian Murdock is amenable to retconning too.
17:02:38 <harda> Oh, yeah.  Should we start the meeting? :)
17:02:57 <jedijf> a wee bit early
17:02:57 <Joe_CoT> at 9. pa is meeting (or are they? I see no one there ...)
17:03:15 <jedijf> 8:30 for pa \
17:03:34 <harda> Oh.  I guess the meeting is in an hour.
17:03:41 <Joe_CoT> 8:/30/?
17:03:45 <Joe_CoT> til when?
17:03:57 <jedijf> 8:30-8:32 it seems
17:04:41 <jedijf> meetings have been dead
17:05:03 <Joe_CoT> i see.
17:05:15 <jedijf> may go to your system: call when needed
17:05:26 <Joe_CoT> well, our last meeting was pretty good. let's see if we can manage it again
17:05:34 <jedijf> jinx
17:05:39 <Joe_CoT> if not, forking the kernel ftw
17:05:48 <harda> I hope we don't have an hour of material to cover.
17:06:04 <jedijf> or philosophy of advocacy and intended target audience/demographics
17:07:15 <harda> It's talk like a pirate day, people, not talk like an android day.
17:07:21 Joe_CoT changed topic of #ubuntu-us-nj to: Next Meeting: September 19th, 9-10PM || Topics: Farmers Market Advocacy on Saturday the 22nd and a proposed dapper but feisty release party for Gutsy Gibbon
17:07:50 Joe_CoT changed topic of #ubuntu-us-nj to: ARR, ye scurvy dogs! Next Meeting: September 19th, 9-10PM || Topics: Farmers Market Advocacy on Saturday the 22nd and a proposed dapper but feisty release party for Gutsy Gibbon
17:08:12 nosrednaekim has joined #ubuntu-us-nj
17:08:57 <harda> gQuigs: Did you figure out whatever you needed to figure out for the RML calendar?
17:10:13 <Joe_CoT> so while we're waiting ... how much longer do you think we should wait for going up for approval? We've done enough events, we have a fair amount of active members.
17:11:12 <harda> What are the consequences of going up for membership and failing?  Besides you being embarassed?
17:11:33 <Joe_CoT> a public, violent flogging. by me.
17:11:43 <nosrednaekim> ya ha ta walk the plank!
17:11:49 <Joe_CoT> (as opposed to the non-violent type of flogging)
17:11:57 <jedijf> specific info given as to what it will take to achieve that status
17:12:20 <jedijf> would be the only consequence besides humiliation
17:12:30 <Joe_CoT> well, we can't go up /just/ yet anyway. they expect things like "plans" and "a roadmap".
17:12:48 <jedijf> and being ridiculed by member countries with 6 members
17:12:59 <jedijf> in their native tongues
17:13:00 <Joe_CoT> jedijf: that's why you send it to jono first. no one likes public humiliation.
17:13:44 <harda> Ok.  So I think that we should develop those things we need for acceptance before we go up for approval.  Does that answer your question?
17:14:17 <Joe_CoT> well yes, obviously. the question is are we ready, in terms of events done and membership?
17:15:00 <jedijf> the only question someone may havee is about statewide activity
17:15:15 <jedijf> but you can roadmap the development of the inactive areas
17:16:00 <Joe_CoT> jedijf: how many CDs do you think you're bringing on Saturday?
17:16:04 <jedijf> that's what pa did, yet still hasn't completed
17:16:06 <harda> Joe_CoT: I guess I don't care much personally about jumping through Cannonical's arbitrary hoops.
17:16:09 <jedijf> how many do you need
17:16:42 <Joe_CoT> well, how many do you have left from last weekend? if it's enough, i won't bother burning half a spool tonight (especially since gutsy's out soon)
17:16:42 <jedijf> harda, i agree, but the cd's are nice benefit of membership
17:16:58 <jedijf> i gave all the pressed ones to you guys
17:17:06 <harda> I have those CDs.
17:17:07 <jedijf> harda, how many? did you count them
17:17:14 <harda> About a dozen.
17:17:21 <Joe_CoT> more than that, i thought
17:17:26 <jedijf> is that all?
17:17:35 <jedijf> did you get the second box
17:17:39 <harda> I'm talking about the ones jedijf gave me personally.  I didn't count the ones in the bag.
17:17:48 <jedijf> shew
17:18:00 <harda> Do you want me to get the bag out of my trunk to count them?
17:18:12 <jedijf> i have a ton of open cd's and 20 mac foss cd's
17:18:14 <Joe_CoT> no, that's fine. I'll just burn some tonight
17:18:15 <harda> Scratch that.  I'll do it anyway while I wait for the meeting to start.
17:18:27 <Joe_CoT> ok :)
17:18:43 <jedijf> i have 100 opencd's
17:19:42 <jedijf> if they aren't sure about ubuntu, at least that will expose them to the software
17:20:12 <Joe_CoT> yeah, opencd's are a plus
17:20:28 <Joe_CoT> i'm still undecided about getting the 200 cd changer kevin brought on saturday
17:20:30 <jedijf> the mac foss cd is good to, if anyone goes that way
17:20:44 <jedijf> i am getting one for xmas
17:20:52 <jedijf> from my wife
17:21:06 <jedijf> maybe earlier for anniversary
17:21:12 <harda> There are no cds in this bag.  Was there another bag?  (my trunk is filled with cardboard I'm bringing to recycle tomorrow and I didn't look for another bag)
17:21:31 <jedijf> joe did you keep box 2?
17:22:07 <Joe_CoT> there is 1) a box of printed ubuntu cds, 2) in the bag, a box of cd sleeves -- the sleeves have CDs in them
17:22:21 <jedijf> i seem to recall transferring them to harda's bag though
17:23:04 <harda> Well, there are no CD sleves in the gym bag.  I'm rummage through my trunk again.
17:23:20 <jedijf> it was plastic store bag
17:23:25 <jedijf> i believe
17:24:20 <jedijf> i have 150 blanks, i'll start burning and see if pa wants to donate some also
17:24:38 <Joe_CoT> hold on for a sec
17:25:03 <harda> Ok.  I have a box full of CDs now.  I'm going to start counting.
17:25:04 <Joe_CoT> i know we have around 30 printed ones, and i gave you about 20 burned ones. Whether you or i have them, they exist.
17:25:31 <jedijf> big trunk
17:25:58 <nosrednaekim> you really think that many people will be interested?
17:26:21 <jedijf> you never know with these things
17:26:30 <jedijf> and if it takes off - they'll fly
17:26:45 <nosrednaekim> yeah... I guess so :)
17:26:54 <Joe_CoT> nosrednaekim: i want around 100-150 Ubuntu CDs burned. not much more or less. I'll bring a spool or two of blanks in case.
17:27:14 <Joe_CoT> i don't want too few, cuz then i can't give people CDs, i don't want too many, because gutsy's around the corner
17:27:16 <nosrednaekim> I guess they really don't go "bad"
17:27:23 <Joe_CoT> yes, they do ;)
17:27:37 <nosrednaekim> yeah... thats right... Gutsy.
17:27:47 <jedijf> don't sharpie a version
17:27:51 <jedijf> just ubu
17:28:08 <Joe_CoT> haha
17:28:18 <Joe_CoT> in that case, i've got some breezy ones i can still give out ...
17:28:23 <nosrednaekim> 0.o
17:28:25 * jedijf too
17:28:39 <jedijf> should have slipped them in at sfd
17:28:47 * nosrednaekim has a x86_64 breezy CD
17:29:09 <harda> Ok.  There are 47 7.04 CDs in branded jackets.  I'm still counting the rest.
17:29:17 <Joe_CoT> cool
17:29:23 <jedijf> add inserts apt-get update && apt-get upgrade
17:29:24 <nosrednaekim> I don't think  I'll be able to make it though.... my mom/dad would have to take me..
17:29:26 <Joe_CoT> i didn't give you many burned ones.
17:29:39 <Joe_CoT> many of those aren't burned. if they don't have labels, it's blank.
17:29:46 <Joe_CoT> and the burned ones are all up front
17:29:50 <jedijf> fillers
17:30:16 <harda> 12 CDs on Staples-brand media labled `Ubuntu.'  3 Open CDs and 4 burned CDs labeled `Feisty Fawn.'
17:30:19 <harda> That's what I has.
17:30:37 <Joe_CoT> ok. so i should burn the half spool i've got, and we're good.
17:31:31 <jedijf> nice and i have more in the van that western pa is never going to use
17:32:21 <jedijf> 30 ubu - 4 kubu - 4 edubu
17:32:44 <Joe_CoT> ok, i have 35 to burn with me. So that should be fine
17:33:02 <jedijf> and 10 retros
17:33:22 <Joe_CoT> keep em. we'll emulate them at lug/ip in 10 years or so ;D
17:33:59 <jedijf> and a complete commodore 128 system.....
17:34:16 <Joe_CoT> cool!
17:34:39 <jedijf> you didn't see it at sfd?
17:34:49 <jedijf> i was begging someone to take it
17:35:57 <Joe_CoT> i missed that.
17:36:03 <Joe_CoT> wouldn't have taken it anyway, though
17:36:13 <jedijf> its recycled
17:36:24 <Joe_CoT> ah
17:44:41 <Joe_CoT> *phew* for a minute i thought i borked my burner
17:44:46 <nosrednaekim> so how did the PA event go?
17:45:23 <Joe_CoT> it went pretty well. harda gave his stump speech for GNU :)
17:47:20 <jedijf> went very well
17:48:47 <nosrednaekim> convert anyone?
17:49:19 * nosrednaekim puts on his "GNU/Linux" hat in the presence of a GNUsance
17:49:38 nosrednaekim has quit [Remote closed the connection]
17:49:50 <jedijf> 70 opencd's given out / 43 ubuntu cd's and much interest around mythtv and audacity demos
17:53:02 <Grarg> there's a "program", like the type you can do from the start menu, that'll automatically upgrade versions
17:53:49 <Grarg> actually, come to think of it, it automatically runs and prompts you to upgrade (in the latest versions), so that's not something you need to tell people about
17:54:25 <Joe_CoT> grarg: this is true, but i like to give people the latest one, and when their first experience with ubuntu is an upgrade ... it's not a great first impression
17:54:36 <Grarg> true
17:54:55 <Grarg> it is a smooth upgrade though
17:55:16 * harda has his doubts about that last statement
17:55:29 <Grarg> I just did it 2x on my laptop
17:55:55 <Grarg> only issue was the upgrade to gutsy, because apt broke, which got awkward, but gutsy is beta anyway
17:56:04 <Grarg> "smoothish"
17:56:44 <Grarg> much easier than telling people to edit /etc/apt/sources.list
17:57:08 <Grarg> also, if they do play around with the cds, it's going to prompt them next month anyway
17:57:18 <Joe_CoT> this is true. but when naming things in ubuntu that can or do go wrong, upgrades are pretty high on the list.
18:04:50 <Joe_CoT> ok, meeting. roll call?
18:05:04 * jedijf present 1/2 and 1/2
18:05:30 <harda> I'm here 100% until the discussion gets boring or fustrating; then I go to bed.
18:06:32 <Joe_CoT> haha. anyone else? Grarg, gQuigs, mcgrof, tehk, joincamp_ ?
18:06:52 <gQuigs> look I'm here
18:06:56 <gQuigs> I think
18:07:12 <Joe_CoT> ok. firstly, columbus this saturday
18:07:34 <Joe_CoT> we've got CDs, dave's grabbing the table (thanks dave!), we need to bring chairs.
18:07:49 <jedijf> early weather report?
18:08:03 <* harda> continue the discussion
18:08:35 <Joe_CoT> ok. anything else we need to consider for this? seems pretty straight forward. Show up, hand out CDs, demo, answer questions
18:09:03 <Joe_CoT> i'm seeing mostly sunny saturday
18:09:13 <jedijf> nice
18:09:20 <harda> Early weather report: absolutely gorgeous (Sunny + mid-to-high-seventies)
18:09:29 <jedijf> nicer
18:10:00 <Joe_CoT> also, the clouds will be phish all day
18:10:03 <Joe_CoT> *play
18:10:10 <Joe_CoT> bah. now i sound like i'm drunk
18:10:28 <harda> I've seen drunk people on IRC.  You don't look drunk... yet.
18:10:35 <Joe_CoT> danmit!
18:10:47 <gQuigs> I used to play in a CS:S stoner server :P
18:10:51 <Joe_CoT> heh
18:11:22 <harda> Is there any discussion about Saturday?  Are there any questions.  I can probably answer questions.
18:11:26 <Joe_CoT> okay. i'm considering printing a flyer with links like PA usually does: our link, the forums, the documentation, etc. Worth it?
18:11:34 <harda> s/./?/
18:11:34 <jedijf> yes
18:11:38 <jedijf> *yes*
18:11:51 <jedijf> keep them connected
18:11:56 <harda> Joe_CoT: I concur with jedijf.  It is definately worth it.
18:12:07 <Joe_CoT> ok. i'll do half-page, we'll hand them out with the CDs
18:12:17 <jedijf> i used a nine per page setup in the past - nice size
18:12:29 <harda> I suggest you also include links to the two local (to columbus) LUGs: LUG/IP and CHLUG.
18:12:38 <Joe_CoT> ok, will do.
18:12:45 <gQuigs> have you seen the one I made for work?
18:12:54 <Joe_CoT> nope
18:14:01 <Joe_CoT> ok, i don't think anyone has questions for columbus. i'll see you guys there (and brian on the way).
18:14:14 <gQuigs> ok cool
18:14:18 <jedijf> see everyone saturday
18:14:19 <Joe_CoT> release party. PA is apparently having theirs on the 28th (a Sunday).
18:14:23 <Joe_CoT> when? where? what?
18:14:23 <gQuigs> cya
18:14:38 <Joe_CoT> oh, that wasn't a "go home" just yet ^_^;
18:14:42 <jedijf> post the resource info somewhere - i have a printer in the van if we get stuck
18:15:06 <jedijf> k
18:15:24 <harda> jedijf: You are going to have to give me a tour of the infamous yoda van on Saturday.
18:15:28 <Joe_CoT> jedijf: will do
18:15:59 <jedijf> it's an awesome, somewhat ghetto, setup that just works :)
18:16:20 <harda> Joe_CoT: I don't care about the details for the release party.  Can you just pick something and tell us what to do?
18:16:54 nosrednaekim has joined #ubuntu-us-nj
18:17:05 <Joe_CoT> grr *sets Phasers on kill* I don't want to make all the decisions. I don't even have ideas for the release party
18:17:38 <harda> Joe_CoT: You have plenty of ideas.
18:18:10 <harda> Joe_CoT: What part of making decisions don't you like?
18:18:32 <Joe_CoT> the part where no one likes them later. I'd like some opinions on what to lean towards
18:19:26 <harda> Joe_CoT: Who is the last person who didn't like an idea of yours?  Put them in charge of the release party.
18:19:29 <jedijf> i am going to promote the pa get your geek on gutsy gibbon give-away / halloween / release party to all local lugs
18:20:24 <Joe_CoT> heh. OK, fine, I'll ask again for opinions on list, we'll talk about it on saturday, and i'll figure something out next week.
18:20:26 <harda> jedijf: If you feel more comfortable having me post the announcemen to the NJ LUGs, just send it to me and I'll get it done.
18:21:12 <jedijf> i'll wait to see what you guys are doing
18:21:22 <jedijf> but i will post to new mid atlantic list
18:21:40 <jedijf> don't want to steal nj people unnecessarily
18:22:06 <harda> It might be useful if we and the Philly crowd can agree on who will have which events.  I dislike the feeling of trying to have to out-do them.
18:22:24 <Joe_CoT> jedijf: you don't need to wait to see what we're doing. your date's set for the 28th, right? I can pretty much guarantee ours won't fall on a sunday, especially that sunday
18:22:24 <harda> (Nobody is saying that we should try that, but I feel it anyway)
18:22:36 <jedijf> but, i don't know about you guys, but it was nice to see a whole community event like sfd
18:22:39 <jedijf> np
18:22:44 <jedijf> Joe_CoT, k
18:23:13 <jedijf> plug - chlug - plug(north) - pacs - and two locos
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18:25:08 <* harda> his DefectiveByDesign hazmat suit
18:25:32 <Joe_CoT> harda, i don't think we can reasonably compete with the philly crowd. Our release party will be further north, and i expect most of us will go to the PA one too
18:25:35 <harda> Otherwise I'll have to dress up as rms.
18:25:55 * jedijf likes both harda costumes :)
18:26:00 <harda> Joe_CoT: I'm not saying we should compete.  I'm saying I don't want to feel like we're competing at all.
18:26:01 <Joe_CoT> harda: dress up as rms? so, not wear black? scratch your crotch more often? ;D
18:26:18 <jedijf> cordsand plaid shirt
18:26:47 <harda> Joe_CoT: RMS always wears the same shirt for his public appearances and he has a belly that looks *exactly* like he's hiding a watermellon under his shirt.
18:26:54 <harda> Plus, I comb my hair occasionally.
18:27:19 <Joe_CoT> haha
18:27:28 <harda> Also, RMS doesn't blink, which gives his eyes a glassy appearance.
18:27:41 <Joe_CoT> like a Final Fantasy movie
18:28:01 <jedijf> ok so what release event for nj?
18:28:08 <jedijf> brainstorm
18:28:18 <jedijf> upgrade-fest?
18:28:19 <harda> I already gave up my ideas.
18:28:19 <Joe_CoT> toga party
18:28:49 <FrostyColdDrink> Giant tux cake
18:28:58 <harda> Additional idea: we all go over somebodies house, get drunk, and see he can successfully upgrade to Gusty while the drunkest.
18:29:22 <jedijf> from breezy ;D
18:29:26 <harda> No backups permitted beforehand.
18:29:30 <harda> jedijf++
18:29:37 <jedijf> on a work box
18:29:42 <Joe_CoT> harda: a one-button upgrade. it's complete chance. whoever used automatix before loses
18:29:48 <gQuigs> harda: I think I'll win that contest
18:29:51 <Joe_CoT> from breezy, on the other hand
18:29:59 <nosrednaekim> muhaha
18:30:10 <jedijf> with broadcom chipsets
18:30:17 <harda> gQuigs: Ha!  I've a hundred pounds of beer-absorbing gut on you.  Dream on little-man.
18:30:49 <jedijf> oh shucks - gutsy release LAN party
18:31:16 <harda> jedijf: So all of the people who could actually help people upgrade instead frag each other?
18:31:37 <Joe_CoT> i would rather frag on a different date. though frag i will!
18:31:38 <jedijf> yep
18:32:15 * Joe_CoT gives up burning CDs on a b0rked k3b
18:32:52 <Joe_CoT> oof, you know apt-get's going to have fun when it starts with "extracting templates from packages"
18:33:45 <Joe_CoT> ok, let's try talking about gutsy events on saturday. we'll have time some time in there
18:34:09 <Joe_CoT> jedijf: i do want a lan party. If it's good with everyone else, that should be our next event after gutsy release.
18:34:10 <harda> Bah.  But ok.
18:34:36 <gQuigs> harda: I'll have gutsy b4 the release date :P running it now
18:34:49 <jedijf> i just know that it has been on the wiki since almost day one, so someone wants one
18:35:00 <Joe_CoT> O:-)
18:35:18 <harda> gQuigs: I on the otherhand, have 5 years experience running Debian sid.
18:36:01 <Joe_CoT> gQuigs: i'm running it too. but i'll reinstall fresh when gutsy comes out.
18:36:34 <nosrednaekim> I have it installed, but i'm going to upgrade fiesty when its released.
18:36:45 <harda> Well, maybe I haven't run sid for 5 years straight.  But everytime I ran it, I regretted it!
18:37:08 <Joe_CoT> i always upgrade from version to version, and also use the milestone releases. Then a few months later, i reinstall, and find out all this cool stuff i was missing because my gconf wasn't up to date
18:37:21 <nosrednaekim> gconf.... psssh
18:37:28 * nosrednaekim is a Kubuntu user
18:37:48 <Joe_CoT> i didn't know network manager did roaming wireless until i switched laptops and reinstalled feisty
18:38:20 <harda> Is there any more business?
18:38:27 <Joe_CoT> anyway, i think we're about done with meeting. now, forking the kernel
18:38:30 <jedijf> adjourn
18:38:32 <Joe_CoT> my answer: no
18:38:47 <Joe_CoT> there, done talking about forking the kernel
18:39:06 <harda> The kernel most distribtuions ship is effectively a fork.
18:39:46 <Joe_CoT> no, just lots of patches. it may stray pretty far, but it still goes along with vanilla from version to version.
18:39:47 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: Did you want to discuss something?
18:40:19 <FrostyColdDrink> yes-ish. Only matters if others are intrested though.
18:40:33 <Joe_CoT> what's up?
18:40:33 * jedijf is interested
18:40:40 <harda> Joe_CoT: That's excactly what I meant when I said it was effectively a fork.
18:40:52 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: I'll listen and determine if I'm interested then.
18:41:00 <FrostyColdDrink> hah sounds good
18:41:17 * nosrednaekim is interestedly uninterested
18:41:29 <FrostyColdDrink> Well basically we advocate use of (Ubuntu) Linux, and secondarily open source software, right?
18:41:35 <Joe_CoT> harda: compiz and beryl were forks. There were things in compiz that weren't in beryl. Distros patch the kernel, but they don't lose features from the kernel
18:41:40 <FrostyColdDrink> Though we do the first part mainly to do the second part
18:41:54 <FrostyColdDrink> odd really
18:42:07 <harda> Joe_CoT: I don't think the definition of a fork is ``must lose features.''
18:42:30 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: I'm with you so far.
18:42:32 <jedijf> FrostyColdDrink, sfd was the opposite approach
18:42:40 <jedijf> but contine
18:42:42 tehk has quit ["Leaving"]
18:42:46 <jedijf> continue
18:42:48 <FrostyColdDrink> Obviously we are aware different segments of the population have different wants and needs.
18:43:10 <FrostyColdDrink> If we want to "convert" someone we need to make the sale based on that.
18:43:23 * jedijf agrees
18:44:01 <harda> s/make the sale/convince them/ and I agree
18:44:03 <FrostyColdDrink> So. Given that we have limited resources, do we just try the one generic approach or less wasteful targeted approaches? Do we cast a big net and pray or get a couple good fishermen to head out with spearguns.
18:44:35 <jedijf> FrostyColdDrink, that is why i advocate the giving of the opencd, which gets the public /used/ to the software in an environment that they are already familiar/comfortable with
18:45:51 <jedijf> FrostyColdDrink, i believe at this stage, its still big net, just to let people know that we/it exists
18:45:59 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: I think your categorisation of our current approach might be unfair.
18:46:12 <harda> I, and most others here, have certainly worked with individuals.
18:46:21 <gQuigs> I throw spears all the time
18:47:03 <FrostyColdDrink> Oh of course., but there are a lot of net vs spear situations out there
18:47:47 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: One of the problems is that it is hard for a team, like us, to throw a spear effectively together.  To do events together, we more often than not need to throw nets.
18:47:47 <jedijf> spear = non-profits / community groups
18:48:09 <jedijf> net = general public
18:48:22 <gQuigs> I just need better spears
18:48:39 <gQuigs> or a clearer target
18:48:42 <FrostyColdDrink> well the second part would really be better spears, but that can come later/never
18:48:43 <harda> Spear throwing might look more effective on paper, but I think its also possible that by ourselves we wouldn't be as dedicated as we are when we're together.
18:49:07 <harda> I certainly find encouragement from the people in this room.
18:49:58 <harda> Now, I think we've speared the analogy to death.  Can we talk in plain English now?
18:50:10 <FrostyColdDrink> can we talk in perl?
18:51:12 <harda> Oysters are hard to catch using nets or spears.
18:51:15 <FrostyColdDrink> anyway there is a whole group "synergy" thing, and different intrests within the group
18:51:22 <FrostyColdDrink> oh thats just plain wrong
18:52:29 <gQuigs> what was that... please speak in english :)
18:52:31 <FrostyColdDrink> but what are the tag lines going to be at the farmers markeT?
18:52:32 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: Nobody in this group, that I know of, is discouraging individuals from doing their own advocacy.  If they were, Joe_CoT would probably dish out that floggin he threatend before your /joined.
18:52:47 <Joe_CoT> harda++
18:52:50 <nosrednaekim> hehe
18:53:04 <jedijf> i do it all the time
18:53:22 <jedijf> just gave a chef an ubuntu cd, he was familiar with mandrake
18:53:22 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: The tag line is going to be, from me, honest conversation about free (as in freedom) software.
18:53:37 <FrostyColdDrink> I see that as good and bad
18:53:45 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: I see it as honest.
18:53:51 <Joe_CoT> Software for nothing (linux for free)
18:53:54 <FrostyColdDrink> Some percentage will care, some wont. Who are we going to miss?
18:53:56 <harda> Which is, as you might say, good and bad.
18:54:12 <FrostyColdDrink> honesty is allways good. Its just an issue of which facts we lead off with
18:54:41 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: We'll probably miss the people who wouldn't contribute to the free software movement anyway.
18:54:47 <gQuigs> I usually lead with fancy graphics, then hold their attention with it being free
18:54:48 <FrostyColdDrink> I just think of how many people are going to walk by that may have been potential converts because we didnt put out the message that would hook them
18:55:04 <gQuigs> ah... we need to demo some app that will help farmers!
18:55:14 <harda> gQuigs: GnuMilk?
18:55:18 <FrostyColdDrink> small businesses like free, big ones get scared. always works for individuals though!
18:55:45 <FrostyColdDrink> Hey they could track thier farmer-type statistics in an OO.o spread sheet
18:56:06 <jedijf> and then there are those who equate free as inadequate and/or beta
18:56:43 <FrostyColdDrink> yeah. I wouldnt say get a dozen messages and fling them widely. But maybe 3 or so different "advocacy paths" might help us be more efective
18:56:58 <jedijf> so there is no one clear path, but together it makes a compelling package
18:57:04 <FrostyColdDrink> With limited resources, we need to be as efficient as possible. That may be targeting, it may be broad messages. Dunno.
18:57:06 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: I think we have as many different advocacy-paths as we have advocates
18:57:33 <FrostyColdDrink> Thats good, but are the people walking by seeing that?
18:58:12 <jedijf> anyone that would be interested, is our crowd, and will stop and ask/watch/listen
18:58:26 <nosrednaekim> nah... they are seeing the fancy beryl effects :)
18:58:41 <jedijf> it that's what makes them stop
18:59:02 <jedijf> now that you have their attention, attack their emotions
18:59:04 <FrostyColdDrink> inrested in what jedijf?
18:59:15 <jedijf> people buy on emotion
18:59:15 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: I don't know.  I do know that if we try to show people too many different things, they won't see any of them.
18:59:26 <jedijf> breyl'ish spinny shiny stuff
18:59:43 <jedijf> computers in general
18:59:50 <FrostyColdDrink> Yeah but what if you just want to "Get internet" at home
18:59:51 <Joe_CoT> if you want beryl, my battery's going to go quite a bit faster ....
19:00:07 <nosrednaekim> car batteries...
19:00:14 <nosrednaekim> I can't come though...
19:00:15 <FrostyColdDrink> Or what if your a scrapbooking mom
19:00:29 <nosrednaekim> or i;d bring some with a inverter...
19:00:36 <jedijf> we have all that - but will she interested enough to stop
19:00:38 <FrostyColdDrink> or you want to built a giant streaming media server
19:00:49 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: What's the actual question you're asking?
19:00:50 <jedijf> they'll stop
19:00:57 <FrostyColdDrink> Thats the problem jedijf.
19:01:08 <jedijf> not a problem : reality
19:01:32 <FrostyColdDrink> Actual question: With our limited resources, is it better to / to what degree should we do targeted advoacy
19:01:55 <jedijf> in this phase its all about recognition
19:02:07 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: Targeted advocacy, as we just discussed, means working as individuals mostly.  So we should each do as much as each of us can.
19:02:08 <jedijf> that's the net that you mentioned earlier
19:02:40 <jedijf> get the name out, the concepts, and /create/ a familiarity
19:02:41 <FrostyColdDrink> I don't quite agree with that definition harda
19:02:47 <jedijf> its a process
19:02:47 <gQuigs> anybody know of an application specific to farmers ?
19:03:10 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: To a large degree, individual advocacy means working with people we already have a relationship with.  I only have so many relationships I can grow through free software advocacy.
19:03:18 <jedijf> to remain farmers today i am certain they use spreadsheets
19:03:42 <jedijf> or they would have been townhouses by now
19:03:44 <nosrednaekim> alot of people who go to columbus farmers market are NOT farmers...
19:03:45 <harda> gQuigs: Despite the name, the farmers probably only represent a small minority at the Farmers Market.
19:03:57 <harda> nosrednaekim++
19:04:09 <nosrednaekim> my brother's Girlfriend goes there all the time to shop.
19:04:15 <nosrednaekim> (lives right down the road
19:04:33 <FrostyColdDrink> Yeah there will be a lot of random local people who want some fresh produce on the cheap
19:04:40 <jedijf> and i know many people, myself included, that wouldn't fit into FrostyColdDrink's /targetted/ audience, but i have been using linux for 10 years
19:04:44 <harda> My grandmom always brought me to farmers markets and so I associate the markets with old people.  I'm not sure whether I associated correctly or not.
19:05:44 <FrostyColdDrink> You should also expect to see a lot of pretentious new sub-yuppie parrents
19:05:52 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: Can you tell *me* one thing *I* should be doing differently?
19:06:08 <harda> (as a free software advocate; I already know I should eat less :-)
19:06:14 <nosrednaekim> haha
19:06:22 <nosrednaekim> cut your beard ;)
19:06:24 <FrostyColdDrink> Yes-ish. Have more than 1 message. (I say ish because I don't know effectiveness until its done)
19:06:25 <jedijf> have to eat to live
19:06:29 <nosrednaekim> don't wear flip-flops?
19:07:43 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: I do.  I personalize my message to each person I talk to about free software.
19:08:01 <harda> In the very same room, I tell my Mom and my Dad about different aspects of free software.
19:08:38 <jedijf> the most important thing about advocacy is this : NIKE
19:08:40 <jedijf> just do it
19:08:43 <jedijf> anything
19:08:47 <jedijf> with anyone
19:08:57 <FrostyColdDrink> What about when they are walking buy? You've got a fraction of a second to get them intrested. What do you say? Whats the sinage?
19:09:11 <jedijf> come out and watch me
19:09:22 <jedijf> i do sales all day/all night
19:09:23 <FrostyColdDrink> I know you'll talk to them about what they are intrested in once they are talking to you. Its getting to that point im concerned with
19:09:26 <jedijf> love the show
19:09:42 <FrostyColdDrink> jedijf I don't think I need to convince you of anything :)
19:09:57 <nosrednaekim> this sounds like a friendly little spat...
19:10:00 <FrostyColdDrink> Its doing sales and marketing in the past that makes me think this way
19:10:47 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: In the past three years, I have personally given out more than 300 CDs at the Trenton Computer Festival.  What I did is noticed when people looked at LUG/IP's sign, made eye contact, and said, ``are you interested in GNU+Linux?''
19:11:18 <harda> (Note: I used to say GNULinux without pronouncing any seperator character, as explained in an old post on my blog)
19:11:18 <nosrednaekim> when is the Trenton computer festival anyway?
19:11:25 <harda> nosrednaekim: Middle of April every year.
19:11:32 <nosrednaekim> ah.. ok.
19:12:08 <gQuigs> I usually spin the desktop to get their attention :P
19:12:43 <FrostyColdDrink> Maybe you should see the guy walking around totally wired and say "Intrested on pushing your computer to do more?"
19:13:24 <FrostyColdDrink> And *then* say "Are you intresed in GNU+Linux"
19:13:49 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: If he doesn't read the sign, he's probably in a hurry and not at all interested in *anyone* talking to him.
19:13:51 <gQuigs> I always prefer showing them first *and* then getting them to ask me
19:14:03 <FrostyColdDrink> Of course TCF atendees may be more inclined to see what this Linux thing than your average farmers market going person
19:14:26 <FrostyColdDrink> harda the point is what does the sign say?
19:14:44 <harda> gQuigs: I like to start talking.  Once I start talking, they don't usually leave until they have enough information to make a decision about whether to presue free software.
19:15:04 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: The Linux Users Group in Princeton
19:15:13 <harda> (with a penguin logo)
19:15:16 <FrostyColdDrink> "Are you intrested in GNU+Linux?" No. "Are you intrested in getting your e-mail and web browsing without being nagged by your unstabled OS?" Yes. So how about Linux..
19:16:02 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: Ok.  I hear your point.  Personally, I'm not interested in chaing my approach right now.  But I will keep what you're saying in mind.
19:16:41 <harda> s/chaing/changing/
19:16:44 <jedijf> in pa we used "Free of spyware and viruses" as a tagline
19:16:47 <FrostyColdDrink> So long as you do sales performance analysis after that's good :)
19:17:12 <FrostyColdDrink> A *lot* more people care about spyware and virus issues than software freedom, I'm sad to say
19:17:13 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: How about you come out at 06:50 and we'll each get a table and then we can see who's approach does better.
19:17:21 <nosrednaekim> haha
19:17:37 <FrostyColdDrink> Not possible, and it wouldn't work that way anyway
19:17:44 <jedijf> doesn't matter how you get them, as long as you do : ie beryl
19:17:50 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: I don't care about the people who can't be convinced to care about free software.  Adding them to the community won't help us achieve our goals.
19:18:10 <FrostyColdDrink> Wont it? Do you care why someone donates to charity or just that they donate?
19:18:22 <FrostyColdDrink> The homeless guy getting the hot meal sure doesn't.
19:19:45 <gQuigs> that person you shrug off today *might* be in charge of a biz or school tomorrow
19:19:54 <gQuigs> we aren't in it for the quick sale
19:20:01 <gQuigs> we are in it for the revolution :P
19:20:23 <FrostyColdDrink> You need numbers for a revolution though.
19:20:25 <nosrednaekim> :D
19:20:37 <FrostyColdDrink> If you can get a quick sale too, why not take the free bonus?
19:20:57 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: You need motivated numbers.  The people you're proposing to add to the community lack motivation for revolution.
19:21:19 <jedijf> a lot of prejudging going on here -
19:21:33 <nosrednaekim> indeed indeed
19:21:34 <harda> jedijf: Where?
19:21:42 <gQuigs> A quick sale is fine...
19:21:46 <jedijf> get them in, and they will develop into whatever they are going to be
19:21:48 <gQuigs> but that's not the important part
19:22:01 <harda> I think we're talking in analogies and metaphores again, which is bad.
19:22:21 <FrostyColdDrink> If you want driver support, hardware vendors are going to care about numbers an nothing else.
19:22:26 <jedijf> someone you think may be a quick sale, may end up being your greatest advocate
19:23:08 <FrostyColdDrink> Yeah but sadly my brain is wired that way. I lack efficient on-the-spot communication abilities (damn home school) and end up reverting to metaphores
19:23:09 <harda> I think we shouldn't be using the word sale.  We aren't selling anything.
19:23:40 <FrostyColdDrink> But we are convincing people to invest in the software, the philosophy, and the commnity
19:23:40 <nosrednaekim> FrostyColdDrink: hey! watch your mouth...
19:23:43 <FrostyColdDrink> So kinda
19:23:49 * nosrednaekim is homeschooled
19:24:05 <FrostyColdDrink> s/damn/$%@!/ :)
19:24:32 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: Is commnity a communist thing?
19:24:40 jedijf has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net]
19:24:43 <harda> :)
19:25:12 <nosrednaekim> FrostyColdDrink: i'm not talking about your profanity... i'm talking about your libel.
19:25:12 jedijf has joined #ubuntu-us-nj
19:25:37 jedijf has left #ubuntu-us-nj ["Have to go now."]
19:26:05 <harda> nosrednaekim: Technically, what he said is slander. :)
19:26:08 <FrostyColdDrink> Libel? Me? No... not yet ;)
19:26:16 <harda> (Of course, that's only if its untrue)
19:26:20 jedijf has joined #ubuntu-us-nj
19:26:26 <nosrednaekim> it was typed tho..
19:26:48 <FrostyColdDrink> How about defamation?
19:27:17 <harda> Defamation is the general term, yes.
19:27:51 <nosrednaekim> and the safe term...
19:28:07 <harda> nosrednaekim: I suppose it depends on your definition of what type of communication IRC is.  Is it fleeting, like spoken works, or is it durable like a book?
19:28:22 <FrostyColdDrink> Maybe its because I'm exhausted and sick, but where is this alleged defamation?
19:28:39 <harda> FrostyColdDrink: He's accusing you of defaming home schooling.
19:28:39 <FrostyColdDrink> That depends on if your gonna save the logs ;)
19:28:47 <FrostyColdDrink> Oh well then yeah
19:29:05 <FrostyColdDrink> Nah its fine if the parents balance everything out right
19:29:13 <FrostyColdDrink> Which clearly didn't happen with me.
19:29:27 <harda> I feel like IRC is apropos the spoken word.  When I write an email or an article, I think much harder about what I'm writing than I do when I'm communicating via IRC>
19:29:39 <harda> s/>/./
19:29:53 * jedijf nods
19:31:18 <harda> nosrednaekim: As homework, see if there are any court cases discussing the permanance of IRC communications. <eg>
19:31:46 <nosrednaekim> FrostyColdDrink: the alleged defamation was that homeschoolers can't communicate
19:32:02 <nosrednaekim> and i'm homeschooled
19:32:31 <FrostyColdDrink> Your lack of quick response, proper capitalization, and punctuation only lends credit to my opinion. :)
19:33:02 <FrostyColdDrink> And it was communication effectively/efficiently, not communicate in general :)
19:33:03 <nosrednaekim> its only because i'm talking to about 5 other people that that is so.
19:33:11 <nosrednaekim> psh.... I can do that too.
19:33:14 <FrostyColdDrink> I target for greater efficiency when I defame :)
19:33:22 <nosrednaekim> heh
19:33:52 <FrostyColdDrink> Well the fact that you have 5 other people to communicate with may shoot me down
19:34:05 <nosrednaekim> FrostyColdDrink: I take it that you didn't like being homeschooled..
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19:34:42 <FrostyColdDrink> I did. It was actually great at first. But toward the end of the run it did more harm than good.
19:35:03 <nosrednaekim> yeah.,... Highschool (where I am) is rather hard.
19:35:14 <FrostyColdDrink> I got a better and more diverse education, but didn't learn the most important thing school teaches you: dealing with forced social and work situations
19:35:56 <nosrednaekim> hmm... well, here in Burlington county, most people just go to BCC for their highschool stuff.
19:36:35 * harda grew up down the street from BCC
19:36:44 <FrostyColdDrink> I do think the pains of highschool should never be avoided. Toss em in I say
19:36:45 <harda> BCC: Burlington County College
19:36:55 <nosrednaekim> precisely..
19:37:09 <nosrednaekim> anyway... I have to go... school tomorrow!
19:37:15 <harda> nosrednaekim: G'night.
19:37:16 <nosrednaekim> :)
19:37:20 <harda> I'm going to turn in too.
19:37:33 nosrednaekim has quit [Remote closed the connection]
19:37:48 <FrostyColdDrink> man I look away for 30 secons
19:37:52 <FrostyColdDrink> Well goodnight guys