Sunday, January 10th, 2010, 7:00pm (1900) PST


  1. Camp KDE: Darkwing is going, will bring CDs, but wasn't at the meeting to provide more details.
  2. SCaLE8x

    1. Going to have an Ubucon event the first day of SCaLE. It'll have mini-conferences and provide an opportunity for Ubuntu users and enthusiasts to get together.
    2. Also having a booth at SCaLE.
      1. Neal wants to formalize the "conference box" and use SCaLE to test it.
      2. 'buntustand will also hopefully be working by then, and we'll have Canonical pressed CDs to give out too.
  3. Discussion of "Mentors" link on team homepage
    1. Neal said that we don't have a mentor, haven't really ever had one, and that they're for unapproved teams to help them get up and running.
    2. Clarification as to what the mentors program is and isn't, and discussion of how team members can become US Team Mentors if they want.
  4. IRC channel name
    1. Tabled after discussion of what the issue was, and consensus that it's not a time-critical problem.

Original Agenda

  1. Camp KDE Jan 15-22

  2. SCaLE Planning, Feb 19-21, 2010

    1. UbuCon

    2. Booth
  3. Review goals listed on CaliforniaTeam

    1. Coordinate with mentors

  4. IRC channel name - see IrcTeam/ChannelNaming


19:06:29 < nhaines> Welcome to the first California Ubuntu meeting in 2010.  I'd like to wish everyone a happy new year.
19:06:47 < rww> oh joy, netsplits
19:07:00 -!- mode/#ubuntu-california [+o rww] by ChanServ
19:07:52 < dragon> Interesting netsplit
19:07:54 < nhaines> Let's wait a couple minutes to see if the netsplits are repaired.
19:07:58 < dragon> it kicked out only two people?
19:08:15 < nhaines> Flannel: glad you could make it. :)
19:08:33 <@rww> Lots of servers, not a lot of us. #ubuntu lost over 100.
19:09:08 < MarkDudeALT> 4 of us are in another room
19:09:23 < MarkDudeALT> - were.
19:09:24 < nhaines> Excellent.  Let's get started.
19:09:33 < jdeslip> wow... any everyones back...
19:09:36 <@rww> !netsplit
19:09:36 < Eureka> netsplit is when two IRC servers of the same network (like freenode) disconnect from each other, so users on one server stop seeing users on the other. If this is happening now, just relax and enjoy the show. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netsplit
19:09:37 < Eureka> Surf's up, Dude!
19:09:56 < nhaines> So we have a few things to go over today.  If you haven't already, you can read the agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/10January10
19:10:06 < MarkDude> That was sweet
19:10:27 < nhaines> The first item on the agenda is Camp KDE, this Friday until next Friday.
19:11:02 < nhaines> Is anyone who's going to be there want to talk about that for a moment?
19:11:31 < MarkDude> where is darkwing?
19:12:16 < nhaines> Okay, so Camp KDE is a weeklong conference where users and developers of KDE can get together.  There will be presentations and hackfests, and it promises to be an all-around good time.
19:12:36 < nhaines> I believe several members of the LoCo were planning to attend and were bringing CDs, but I don't have the details at hand.
19:13:12 < Flannel> DW will definately be there
19:13:45 < nhaines> It sounds like a great time, and I'm looking forward to hearing back from him once it's over.  :)
19:14:06 < nhaines> Okay then, the next item on the agenda is SCaLE8X, being held at the Westin LAX again this year.
19:15:05 < nhaines> Before we dive into that, does anyone have anything else they'd like to talk to this meeting?
19:15:10 < nhaines> err, talk about?
19:15:42 < Flannel> He means any other announcements
19:15:59 < nhaines> That I do.
19:16:19 * eps hears crickets
19:16:47 < nhaines> Okay then, if anyone thinks of any, let's hear them after we talk about SCaLE.
19:17:07 < nhaines> So the major new thing this year is that there's an Ubucon event on the first day of SCaLE.
19:17:31 < nhaines> The first day is dedicated to mini-conferences, and Ubucon will be a place for Ubuntu users and enthusiasts to get together.
19:17:42 < jbermudes> sounds fun
19:18:15 < dragon> Who's conducting UbuCon?
19:18:26 < Flannel> dragon: What do you mean?
19:18:46 -!- mode/#ubuntu-california [-o rww] by rww
19:18:47 < dragon> Is it going to be run by SCaLE organizers?
19:18:57 < Flannel> dragon: No, it's put on by the loco
19:19:10 < dragon> I see, cool.
19:19:18 < Flannel> It's part of a larger effort to put on a number of them this year.  We're lucky enough to be the first of a number of 'mini-ubucons'
19:19:37 < Flannel> Which is different than a regular one in that it's "attached" to a conference instead of stand alone
19:19:48 < nhaines> So that definitely makes our job easier.
19:20:20 < nhaines> I'm trying to line up speakers to give presentations, and we still need more volunteers, so if you have a favorite topic, let me know.
19:20:54 < jbermudes> I'll help! not sure with what yet, but I'll help :-)
19:20:57 < nhaines> You can find more information about this at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Scale8x/Ubucon
19:20:59 < jdeslip> Don't think I'd be able to make it down to SoCal :/
19:21:01 < nhaines> jbermudes: glad to hear it.  :)
19:21:17 < Flannel> An Ubucon can be whatever we want it to be, but right now it's looking to be a bunch of presentations
19:21:28 < MarkDude> I cant make it to SCALE. Nether can Gidget Kitchen , or the dancin'robots sry
19:21:30 < nhaines> Even if you just have topic ideas, that may be enough for me to arrange a speaker.
19:21:34 < Flannel> So, if you've got crazy ideas for other things we might want to do, speak up
19:22:00 < akk> A packaging session in the try-it lab where someone leads everybody through making a package?
19:22:12 < akk> (That came up in some other context and sounded like a great idea.)
19:22:12 < Flannel> akk: I don't think the try-it lab will be set up by then (Friday)
19:22:13 < jdeslip> Somebody should give a talk just listing all the reasons Banshee should replace Rhythmbox as default and refuse to give up the floor until everyone agrees.
19:22:28 < akk> Flannel: Well, then, just tell people to use their laptops, who needs a special lab?
19:22:28 < jbermudes> Is Jono going to be there?
19:22:29 < grantbow> akk: good topic idea
19:22:30 < MarkDude> :)
19:22:32 < jdeslip> Filibuster at Ubuncon
19:22:38 < nhaines> jdeslip: haha, we'll keep a clustick around during the lighting talks just in case.  ;)
19:23:06 < MarkDude> Jono needs the same technology as grantbow - cloning - grant is everywhere
19:23:07 < Flannel> akk: But if we can wrangle up a presenter, yeah.  That'd be a fun topic
19:23:13 < akk> Lightning talks need a gong or similar anyway. :)
19:24:14 < nhaines> Okay, so in addition, we're going to be running a booth at SCaLE again this year.  We've done this in the past and things tend to go quite smoothly.
19:24:37 < Flannel> nhaines: And no simultaneous bugjam this time!
19:24:47 < nhaines> That's right.  Just the booth.  :)
19:24:53 < jbermudes> hallelujah!
19:24:56 < nhaines> But for the booth we're gonna need volunteers.
19:25:20 < jbermudes> Flannel: are we still going for that crazy wood thing?
19:25:24 < Flannel> nhaines: I'd like to formalize the conference box too before then, and test it for SCaLE
19:25:55 < nhaines> Yes, one of the things we're doing to make conferences easier is to pre-build a conference box that has most of the supplies someone would need.
19:26:03 < Flannel> jbermudes: If we want to, we could try it.  Do you think it's a good idea?  I guess I can write it up a bit more concretely and ping the list
19:26:15 < Yasumoto> Heya, sorry for my tardiness, late family dinner makes Joe late..
19:26:26 < Flannel> Yasumoto: Just in time for SCaLE!
19:26:35 < nhaines> This way we could quickly have a booth if we were requested on short notice.
19:27:02 < Flannel> nhaines: More importantly, other teams can benefit from our experiences
19:27:11 < eps> Is there a wiki page detailing the contents of the conference box?
19:27:32 < nhaines> eps: There is going to be, especially once we field-test it.
19:27:40 < Flannel> eps: Not yet.  I'll write one up with stuff we've done in the past, and we can massage the contents
19:27:51 < nhaines> But what we can't bring in a box is volunteers, so sign up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Scale8x
19:28:07 < Flannel> eps: Instead of the [large table of stuff] on the SCaLE page, we'll try and move it into one [conference box] item
19:28:31 < nhaines> And since I don't seem to have put a signup list there, well, we'll get that sorted after the meeting.
19:28:32 < Flannel> nhaines, Yasumoto: are we doing formal signups this year for timeslots?
19:28:50 * Flannel doesn't remember what we did last year
19:29:02 < nhaines> Flannel: It doesn't have to be locked in stone but I'd like to have a general idea of availability.
19:29:02 < jbermudes> yeah, we had formal signups
19:29:12 < Flannel> nhaines: semi-formal signups!
19:29:17 < nhaines> Flannel: yup!
19:29:21 < Yasumoto> flannel: yeah, we have a submission list, and we'll pick speakers
19:29:33 < Flannel> Yasumoto: SCaLE/UbuCon, but sure :)
19:30:03 < nhaines> It's best if you can commit to at least 3 hours at the booth, and of course we'll do our best to be flexible if, say, you want to see a certain presentation.  We'll make that happen.
19:30:43 < nhaines> Other than that, it should be business as usual.
19:30:45 < jbermudes> nhaines: will there be a page on the wiki for booth times, or how will that work?
19:31:05 < nhaines> jbermudes: I'll take a closer look at last year's page and work something out at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Scale8x
19:31:21 < nhaines> After the meeting, though.  And if all else fails, let us know on the mailing list.
19:31:35 < nhaines> Does anyone have any ideas or questions for the booth or about SCaLE and how that's going to work?
19:31:45 < jbermudes> nhaines, are we running buntustand?
19:32:34 < Flannel> jbermudes: should be
19:32:35 < Yasumoto> Flannel: ah, misunderstood the context, thanks.
19:33:21 < jbermudes> Flannel: do we know where we are this year? (booth location)
19:33:24 < nhaines> We'll also have some nice pressed CDs from Canonical to hand out, so between that and buntustand we'll have everyone covered.
19:33:34 < Flannel> jbermudes: You should ask Yasumoto.
19:33:52 < jbermudes> Yasumoto: do you know where our booth will be this year? (corner again?)
19:34:20 < Yasumoto> The locations haven't been finalized, but presumeably we'll have a corner again
19:34:37 < Flannel> jbermudes: If I remember, we didn't get that until 3/4 weeks off
19:34:44 < jbermudes> Yasumoto: are you working for them again?
19:34:58 < nhaines> Yup, it's still early days, so to speak.  :)
19:35:26 < grantbow> was any request sent for more CDs or was it not thought to be necessary?
19:35:53 < Yasumoto> jbermudes: yeah, I'm getting ready to send out a huge batch of invitation emails to some projects within the next few days :)
19:36:21 < Flannel> grantbow: We haven't requested CDs yet, but with the addition of UbuCon we'll need to reevaluate our CD situation
19:36:51 < grantbow> lead time is running out for requests
19:37:16 < MarkDude> More CDs. Was there a reason for removing items 3 or 4?
19:37:34 < MarkDude> last minute edits have gotten silly to the agenda.
19:37:47 < Flannel> MarkDude: You'll have to ask Grant, he's the one that removed them.
19:38:02 < nhaines> Okay, is there anything more for SCaLE at the moment?
19:38:16 < grantbow> MarkDude: you'll have to ask Flannel about the removal of the main item
19:38:16 < Flannel> grantbow: I'll definately ping C and see what sort of quantities we can get.
19:38:17 < MarkDude> Damn, I was hoping for some talk about tribal stuff.
19:38:51 < MarkDude> flannel?
19:38:56 < Flannel> MarkDude: What?
19:39:14 < MarkDude> he said he said. 1 has power hmm.
19:39:50 < MarkDude> next meeting agenda - pwer structure
19:39:53 < MarkDude> ?
19:40:00 < Flannel> It's not really relevant now, but grantbow, I expanded your 'continue discussion' things to include concrete topics, trimming the ones we've already gotten through.  I didn't remove any sort of main topic.
19:40:09 < MarkDude> any way continue the meeting sry.
19:40:13 < grantbow> Flannel - expansion is not what you did
19:40:45 < nhaines> We discussed that topic during the last meeting.
19:40:51 < Flannel> grantbow: Lets continue by doing the next item on the current agenda, and then those topics can be appended to the end.
19:40:55 < MarkDude> Expansion can be the addition of a negative- intergers.
19:41:20 < nhaines> We talked about subgroups and seemed to agree on a direction.  So let's definitely get this on the ML for discussion and on the next meeting's agenda if there's more to discuss.
19:41:26 < MarkDude> 1st item next week - no changes.
19:41:33 < nhaines> Right now, our next topic is a review of the goals listed on our main page.
19:42:16 < MarkDude> actually 1st item -no last minute changes to wiki.
19:42:35 < nhaines> MarkDude: please don't disrupt the current meeting.
19:42:36 < grantbow> nhaines: I saw no agreement
19:42:54 < grantbow> I reread the log looking for mone
19:42:57 < grantbow> *one
19:43:13 < nhaines> Who added topic 3 to the agenda?
19:43:24 < Flannel> grantbow: Can we please move on with this topic?  We can revisit at the end.  Might as well stick to the agenda at hand for now
19:43:49 < grantbow> ok by me
19:44:01 < MarkDude> write it off as a flannelism.
19:44:07 < nhaines> MarkDude: please stop.
19:44:15 < MarkDude> sry nhaines
19:44:26 * MarkDude sits quietly
19:44:33 < nhaines> MarkDude: stick around and chat about it after the meeting.  But right now's not the time or place.  :)
19:44:51 < MarkDude> k
19:45:03 < jdeslip> I actually have to head in early today.  I have created a draft of "Jack's Dream LoCo" structure.  But, would like a few more days to polish it and more time to discuss it.
19:45:16 < nhaines> Okay, if no one has anything to say about the goals on the Ubuntu California team page, or about coordinating with mentors, we're going to skip it.
19:45:18 < Flannel> jdeslip: You've got plenty of time, don't worry
19:45:30 < nhaines> jdeslip: please get it polished up.  I'd love to read it.
19:45:48 < MarkDude> mentors
19:45:54 < MarkDude> we need to do it.
19:45:56 < jdeslip> Since, I don't believe anyone has anything actual concrete to discuss - I don't see discussing a ghost to be very helpful.
19:46:09 < MarkDude> must do the mentor thing.
19:46:40 < Flannel> MarkDude: I believe this issue came up when the front page was being cleaned.
19:46:55 < MarkDude> any news flannel?
19:47:02 < Flannel> MarkDude: We don't have a mentor to coordinate with, nor have we really ever had one.  Mentors are for unapproved teams, to get them up and running.
19:47:07 < Flannel> MarkDude: News on what?
19:47:32 < MarkDude> We need a mentor to help solve some acrimony.
19:47:39 < Flannel> MarkDude: That's a mediator, not a mentor.
19:47:39 < nhaines> No, that's not what mentors do.
19:47:50 < nhaines> It's not what the USTeam mentors do, at least.
19:47:50 < grantbow> the comments on the home page have relevant description
19:47:55 < MarkDude> nhaines helping out with the meeting IS agood start.
19:48:01 < Flannel> grantbow: Which comments?
19:48:29 < MarkDude> Ok we need a referee then.
19:48:33 < grantbow> Flannel: I'[ll get the url for you, one sec
19:48:49 < MarkDude> BTW I know what a mentor is UW has them also.
19:49:09 < nhaines> MarkDude: the Ubuntu Women team's mentor project is probably not the same as the US LoCo Team's project.
19:49:12 < jdeslip> My opinion is - until we have a well-defined structure there isn't much point arguing about that will naturally be solved when a well-defined and fair structure is in place.
19:49:25 < grantbow> Flannel: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam?action=info
19:49:29 < MarkDude> we need someone with a *stripe shirt* :)
19:49:38 < Flannel> jdeslip: This isn't even about that. This was brought up when someone was making a factual correction to our homepage, and another person took exception to that
19:49:48 < nhaines> MarkDude: we do, he's the Team Leader.
19:50:07 < rww> I thought our team leader's shirt was more of a flannel pattern.
19:50:14 < jdeslip> Flannel: Yes, such disputes would have a natural resolution pathway in a structured group
19:50:18 < grantbow> Flannel: goals are not facts, they are stated directions
19:50:39 < jdeslip> Arguing now about the details is going to lead personal and be of no help whatsoever
19:50:50 < Flannel> grantbow: One of our goals isn't "Coordinate with mentors" because, if nothing else, we're an approved LoCo
19:50:58 < nhaines> The mentor project is only for unapproved tams.
19:51:08 < nhaines> teams.  So that goal is obsolete.
19:51:18 < grantbow> Flannel: I respect your opinion - there are more ways to work with mentors than just being helped
19:51:25 * scunizi think he's steped into a time vortex going back a month or more
19:51:32 < MarkDude> :)
19:51:38 < MarkDude> scunizi: +1
19:51:43 < grantbow> nhaines: many mentors are on approved teams
19:51:58 < grantbow> in fact it's a requrement I think
19:52:02 * jbermudes must be the year 2010 bug causing the vortex
19:52:05 < rww> It is.
19:52:19 < nhaines> grantbow: it's a requirement that a mentor be a member of an approved team.
19:52:19 < jdeslip> I would rather work on getting something in place that will avoid further problems instead worrying about pasts one.  And if we can come up with a self-contained model that is fair and satisfactory, we are all little children.
19:52:33 < nhaines> jdeslip: please stay on topic right now.
19:52:35 < grantbow> I don't see consensus on this issue
19:52:40 < Flannel> grantbow: Point being, there's no reason for us to coordinate with the mentors.  We are a part of the US Teams project, but aren't affiliated with a mentor, etc.
19:52:48 < Flannel> grantbow: There's no consensus, it's factual.
19:52:54 < MarkDude> no concensus- I think we are confused.
19:53:00 < jdeslip> nhaines:  I am staying on topic by explaining why this topic should not be discussed
19:53:04 < MarkDude> s/ think/ know
19:54:02 < nhaines> jdeslip: okay, it is noted that you disagree with the item being on the agenda.
19:54:29 < nhaines> So if I understand correctly, the agenda topic is over the goal of coordinating with the USTeam mentors project?
19:55:04 < nhaines> Any member of an approved LoCo team is free to volunteer to be a USTeam Mentor.
19:55:14 < nhaines> This is not something that requires direct involvement from the LoCo as a group.
19:55:18 < MarkDude> jdeslip:  does your proposal have anything about *tribes* in it?
19:55:23 < MarkDude> sry
19:55:24 < nhaines> MarkDude: please stop.
19:55:42 -!- mode/#ubuntu-california [+o Flannel] by ChanServ
19:55:43 -!- mode/#ubuntu-california [+b %MarkDude!*@*] by Flannel
19:55:46 -!- mode/#ubuntu-california [-o Flannel] by ChanServ
19:55:50 < nhaines> MarkDude: I don't want to keep asking you to stop being inflamatory.
19:56:02 < grantbow> foul - what is +b?
19:56:10 < nhaines> It is a final warning.
19:56:10 < Flannel> grantbow: He's muted for five minutes
19:56:13 < rww> +b % = +q = mute
19:56:20 < grantbow> talk about heavy handed
19:56:31 < grantbow> going to mute me too?
19:56:37 < nhaines> grantbow: please be an adult.
19:57:06 < nhaines> Okay, we're not getting anywhere here.  Let's move on to topic 4, the IRC channel name.
19:57:32 < grantbow> I propose this topic be tabled
19:57:40 < scunizi> It's been a while.. we're thinking of changing it?
19:58:05 < jdeslip> I propose this topic be removed in favor of a discussion that actually has a chance of improving the LoCo.
19:58:07 < Flannel> scunizi: We've considered bringing inline with the naming standards for a while, yeah.
19:58:21 < nhaines> jdeslip: that is overruled.
19:58:28 < nhaines> A quick rundown to prime the mailing list.
19:58:34 < scunizi> got a link to those standards?  I'd like to speed read it..
19:58:38 < jdeslip> (the previous one about mentors that is)
19:58:41 < grantbow> overruled?  wow
19:58:43 < nhaines> Our current channel name is #ubuntu-california, which is an old-style name that has been grandfathered in.
19:58:55 < rww> scunizi: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamHowto#For%20the%20United%20States
19:59:02 < scunizi> thanks rww
19:59:07 < nhaines> The standard channel name if we were starting today would be #ubuntu-us-ca
19:59:18 < nhaines> Which we have and is active, and simply redirects to #ubuntu-california.
19:59:49 < eps> It ain't broke, and don't need fixin'
19:59:55 < nhaines> If I understand correctly, there is talk that we should stop using #ubuntu-california and use #ubuntu-us-ca instead.
20:00:23 < nhaines> Because of the redirects, this would be primarily cosmetic, but would show a standard form in the wiki page, microblog and blog announcements, etc.
20:00:36 < nhaines> Does anyone want to talk about this or do we still want to table it for now?
20:00:41 < eps> Table
20:00:56 < jdeslip> Now, I agree we should table it ;)
20:01:07 < scunizi> I've no issue with that.. ubuntu-us-ca is a pretty good structure.. but I haven't seen other suggestions.. having it forward to ubuntu-california isn't a problem for me either..
20:01:27 < nhaines> I don't have a problem with deferring discussion to another meeting.  Any objections?
20:01:34 -!- mode/#ubuntu-california [+o Flannel] by ChanServ
20:01:35 -!- mode/#ubuntu-california [-b %MarkDude!*@*] by Flannel
20:01:38 -!- mode/#ubuntu-california [-o Flannel] by ChanServ
20:01:44 < rww> I think it's fine like it is. Have we been asked to change it by USTeams or IRCC?
20:01:49 < jbermudes> nhaines, so what you're asking is if we should just switch our official advertisment as us-ca?
20:01:59 < Flannel> jbermudes: No, just the IRC channel name
20:02:28 < Flannel> jbermudes: (so whereever we list the IRC channel, it's -us-ca instead of -california)
20:02:35 < nhaines> rww: no, we're grandfathered in and accessible by both names.
20:02:46 < rww> Personally, I like -california better mainly because #ubuntu-ca exists, and I feel people would forget the -us
20:02:58 < rww> (#ubuntu-ca is Canada)
20:03:14 < grantbow> I guess it's not tabled.
20:03:14 < Flannel> nhaines: Tabling sounds good for now, the facts have been put out, so people can think it over
20:03:16 < nhaines> Okay, a few people have asked to table this and it's clearly not a time-critical problem.
20:03:27 < rww> wfm
20:03:41 < eps> Anything else, or are we done (at a reasonable hour)?
20:03:44 < nhaines> I'm happy with the overview given, and so I think we should bring this up later.  The mailing list is an excellent place to discuss!
20:03:50 < grantbow> I think our team should follow the structure establsihed.  There was talk about doing this before our approval.
20:03:59 < MarkDude> Am I back
20:04:03 < nhaines> Okay, so that's the end of our agenda items.
20:04:04 < MarkDude> Flannel> In five minutes you get your voice back.
20:04:05 < MarkDude>  <MarkDude> I got blocked for trying to help the situation by joking?
20:04:05 < MarkDude>  <Flannel> You're muted for two more minutes for continued offtopic after being warned a few times.
20:04:17 < scunizi> grantbow: basically it does..
20:04:22 < nhaines> MarkDude: please wait until the meeting is over.
20:04:30 < MarkDude> Was that inflamatory jack?
20:04:41 < nhaines> MarkDude: I'm not going to ask you again.
20:04:49 < grantbow> A procedural item with magic operator powers used during a meeting is worth of being included in the meeting log.
20:04:51 < nhaines> Does anyone have any other announcements they'd like to make before we adjourn the meeting?
20:05:01 < grantbow> *worthy
20:05:03 < nhaines> grantbow: I tend to agree.
20:05:35 < grantbow> let's end this meeting
20:05:41 < eps> seconded
20:06:28 < jbermudes> thirded :-p
20:07:21 < nhaines> Okay, there don't appear to be any further announcements, so we'll meet again on Friday, January 24th, 2010.
20:07:36 < nhaines> We'll get the logs up and link SCaLE and Ubucon appropriately in the agenda page.
20:07:50 < nhaines> Thank you all for coming.  Enjoy the rest of your evening.

CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/10January10 (last edited 2010-03-19 04:22:47 by rww)