20090210

Agenda

Items we will be discussing:

  • Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
  • Review progress made on the specification listed on the Roadmap.

  • Status of the mail-stack - ivoks
  • Power management - DustinKirkland

    • cpu frequency scaling, powernowd and Ubuntu servers
    • suspend/hibernate + resume/wakeonlan call for testing
  • Open Discussion.
  • Agree on next meeting date and time.

Minutes

SRU for ebox

mathiaz reported that the relevant ebox packages for the intrepid SRU had been uploaded to the intrepid-proposed pocket. They're waiting to be accepted by the archive team.

Screen profiles

kirkland announced that a new version of the screen-profile package had been uploaded to the archive. Some new features have been added (ec2-cost estimator for the status bar) as well as the usual round of bug fixes. He considers screen-profiles to be feature complete for Jaunty. A PPA has been created to provide screen and screen-profiles packages for intrepid and hardy. Testing is welcome.

Update ServerGuide for Jaunty

sommer mentioned that a few sections of the server guide had been updated. The list is kept in a wiki page and updated sections are marked as needing a review. Help in doing so would be appreciated.

ACTION: sommer to ping mdke about keeping doc.ubuntu.com up-to-date

ACTION: sommer to mark all relevant section as Needs review rather then Done

Postfix and Dovecot integration

ivoks gave a status of the dovecot/postfix integration planned for jaunty. The goal is to have postfix use the dovecot lda, provide SASL authentication via dovecot and use maildir as the default mail store. After some discussion it was suggested to provide a different dovecot configuration file (dovecot-postfix.conf) and modify dovecot's init script to use it if available instead of the default configuration file.

ACTION: ivoks to prepare a debdiff implementing the proposed solution.

Power management

kirkland noted that cpu frequently scaling was not enabled in a default server install. He asked whether powernowd should be installed by default by a server install. soren pointed to a thread on ubuntu-server discussing this topic.

kirkland also reported on his suspend and hibernate tests with server hardware: all of them worked beautifully. In the process he wrote up a MIR for the wakeonlan package. He is looking for volunteers to test suspend and hibernate on server hardware.

Agree on next meeting date and time

Next meeting will be on Tuesday, February 17th at 16:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting.

Log

[16:02] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[16:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is mathiaz.
[16:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:02] <mathiaz> today's meeting agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:02] <zul> hello
[16:02] <mathiaz> Last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090203
[16:02] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] SRU for ebox
[16:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  SRU for ebox
[16:03] <mathiaz> sommer: I've uploaded all the packages to intrepid-proposed
[16:03] <mathiaz> sommer: ebox, libebox and ebox-usersandgroups
[16:03] <sommer> mathiaz: great thanks
[16:03] <mathiaz> nxvl: what's the next step now?
[16:03] <mathiaz> nxvl: IIRC you are/were part of the motu-sru team?
[16:04] <nxvl> i still am
[16:04] <nxvl> well, after the ACK from the motu-sru it goes to SRU-verification team
[16:04] <nxvl> they need to ack it again
[16:04] <nxvl> and then the archive admins will push that into -updates
[16:05] <mathiaz> ok - so we're at step 5 from the SRU procedure  - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[16:05] <mathiaz> kirkland: do you know how to accept SRU ?
[16:06] <kirkland> mathiaz: not yet, but i know where to find the procedure
[16:06] <mathiaz> kirkland: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration#Stable%20release%20updates
[16:07] <mathiaz> so it seems that the ebox sru is in the hand of the archive admins
[16:07] <kirkland> mathiaz: Riddell and I didn't go over that one yet, but I'll take care of it
[16:07] <mathiaz> kirkland: great - thanks.
[16:07] <mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to look into accepting the intrepid SRU for ebox packages
[16:08] <MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to look into accepting the intrepid SRU for ebox packages
[16:08] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Screen profiles
[16:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Screen profiles
[16:08] <mathiaz> kirkland: ^^?
[16:08] <kirkland> mathiaz: uploaded 1.20 yesterday
[16:08] <kirkland> mathiaz: clears the bug queue
[16:08] <kirkland> mathiaz: and takes into account some advice I got from the Ubuntu UI team
[16:08]  * nxvl loves screen profiles
[16:08] <kirkland> aka Desktop Experience
[16:08] <mathiaz> kirkland: no new features? just bug fixes?
[16:08] <kirkland> aka The Bling Team
[16:09] <kirkland> mathiaz: there are new features too
[16:09] <kirkland> mathiaz: including an ec2-cost estimator for the status bar
[16:09] <mathiaz> nealmcb: have you updated the screen factoids?
[16:09] <kirkland> changelog at https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/screen-profiles
[16:10] <nxvl> kirkland: you haven't upload it to the ppa for testing, right?
[16:10] <nxvl> kirkland: i still have 1.15
[16:10] <kirkland> nxvl: oh, thanks for the reminded!
[16:10] <nxvl> \o/
[16:10] <kirkland> there's a screen-profiles ppa now
[16:10] <kirkland> so that you don't have to take all of the rest of my ppa-cruft :-)
[16:10] <mathiaz> kirkland: link?
[16:11] <kirkland> https://edge.launchpad.net/~screen-profiles/+archive/ppa
[16:11] <kirkland> includes packages for Intrepid and Hardy
[16:11] <kirkland> as well as Hardy/Intrepid packages for screen too, which fixes a couple of very minor (annoying) bugs there
[16:11] <kirkland> i'd like to push those through backports, i think, after Jaunty development slows down
[16:11] <mathiaz> kirkland: great - anything else to report on this front?
[16:11] <kirkland> i'm slammed until FF at least, right now
[16:12] <mathiaz> kirkland: screen in -backports?
[16:12] <kirkland> mathiaz: screen-profiles in backports
[16:12] <mathiaz> kirkland: I don't think you can push *new* packages in -backports
[16:12] <kirkland> mathiaz: oh?
[16:12] <kirkland> mathiaz: hmm, okay, sorry, then
[16:12] <mathiaz> kirkland: I'm not 100% sure though
[16:12] <kirkland> mathiaz: okay, well, now that we have a screen-profiles ppa, i'm not that worried about it
[16:13] <kirkland> mathiaz: i would like to see if zul could/would include it in the ec2 images?  (that's a separate discussion)
[16:13] <kirkland> should be easy for the Jaunty ec2 instance
[16:13] <kirkland> maybe more difficult for Hardy/Intrepid images, if it doesn't exist in the archive
[16:13] <zul> kirkland: probably for the release after this one
[16:14] <kirkland> zul: cool
[16:14] <zul> kirkland: ill talk to you after
[16:14] <sommer> kirkland: I wrote up some info for the serverguide on screen-profiles, not sure how complete it is though
[16:14] <kirkland> mathiaz: so i'd just ask for more testing
[16:14] <kirkland> mathiaz: file bugs, if things aren't working like they should
[16:14] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'd call it feature complete now
[16:14] <kirkland> mathiaz: there's nothing else i really plan before FF
[16:15] <kirkland> mathiaz: but i have some longer term ideas/plans for future versions after Jaunty
[16:15] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - keep them somewhere in a wiki page
[16:15] <kirkland> mathiaz: more flexible applet configuration of the status items
[16:15] <kirkland> mathiaz: that's *really* hard to do though
[16:15] <kirkland> mathiaz: cool, will do
[16:15] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'll probably track them as wishlist bugs in Launchpad
[16:16] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'm done
[16:16] <mathiaz> sommer: is http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/index.html up-to-date?
[16:16] <mathiaz> sommer: ie is it the dev version?
[16:17] <sommer> mathiaz: nope, I'll ping mdke about it
[16:17] <mathiaz> sommer: ok
[16:17] <mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to ping mdke about keeping doc.ubuntu.com up-to-date
[16:17] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to ping mdke about keeping doc.ubuntu.com up-to-date
[16:17] <mathiaz> sommer: that way it would be easier to perform reviews
[16:18] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Encrypted private/home with filename encryption available
[16:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Encrypted private/home with filename encryption available
[16:18] <mathiaz> kirkland: did you make a call for testing?
[16:18] <kirkland> mathiaz: hmm, well, no...
[16:19] <kirkland> mathiaz: so Alpha4 has an encrypt-home option *working* in the installer
[16:19] <kirkland> mathiaz: in fact, i've reinstalled several of my machines with it now
[16:19] <kirkland> mathiaz: seems to be working well so far
[16:19] <mathiaz> kirkland: -server and -alternate?
[16:19] <kirkland> mathiaz: there's some kernel noise in dmesg that i'm trying to track down
[16:19] <mathiaz> kirkland: what about -desktop?
[16:19] <kirkland> mathiaz: the -server and -alternate Alpha4 are slightly broken
[16:19] <kirkland> mathiaz: encrypt-home works, but encrypted-filenames do not work
[16:20] <kirkland> mathiaz: but the daily ISO's have this fixed
[16:20] <kirkland> mathiaz: i've tested the -server and -alternate daily's
[16:20] <mathiaz> kirkland: ah ok.
[16:20] <kirkland> mathiaz: the -desktop live CD works well in Alpha4, with encrypted home and encrypted filenames
[16:20] <kirkland> mathiaz: however ....................................
[16:20] <kirkland> mathiaz: kees has brought up concerns
[16:21] <kirkland> mathiaz: and he's recommending that we might pull encrypted-home from the desktop installer
[16:21] <kirkland> mathiaz: we don't have encrypted swap support yet
[16:21] <mathiaz> kirkland: but not from -server and -alternate?
[16:21] <kirkland> mathiaz: right
[16:22] <mathiaz> kirkland: is encrypted swap still on track for inclusion in jaunty?
[16:22] <nijaba> kirkland: is the encrypted home working with shares now?
[16:23] <kirkland> mathiaz: i don't think encrypted swap will be in the installer for Jaunty, shy of a miracle
[16:23] <kirkland> nijaba: shares = nfs/cifs?
[16:23] <kirkland> nijaba: if so, no.
[16:23] <nijaba> kirkland: yep
[16:23] <nijaba> ok, too bad
[16:23] <kirkland> mathiaz: basically, there will be a manual step, to convert your swap to encrypted swap
[16:23] <kirkland> post installation
[16:23] <mathiaz> kirkland: anything else on this matter?
[16:24] <kirkland> mathiaz: i don't think we can expect desktop users to take this extra step
[16:24] <kirkland> mathiaz: and thus, we'll run the risk of leaking their encrypted data in an unencrypted form to swap space
[16:24] <kirkland> mathiaz: should the user do something like hibernate their system
[16:24] <kirkland> mathiaz: no more on this matter
[16:24] <mathiaz> great - let's move on then
[16:25] <mathiaz> kirkland: thanks for the update
[16:25] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Update ServerGuide for Jaunty
[16:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Update ServerGuide for Jaunty
[16:25] <mathiaz> sommer: how is it going?
[16:25] <sommer> mathiaz: getting there
[16:25] <sommer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyServerGuide
[16:26] <mathiaz> sommer: as mentionned above if doc.ubuntu.com could be up-to-date it would help in reviewing the new sections
[16:26] <sommer> I was wondering if we need information on the new cloud virtualization stuff?
[16:26] <mathiaz> zul: soren: ^^ ?
[16:27] <mathiaz> sommer: in the wiki page, what's the difference between Done and Needs Review?
[16:27] <zul> mathiaz: i think it would be a good idea to put in the ec2 stuff in it
[16:27] <mathiaz> sommer: Done section don't need to be reviewed?
[16:28] <sommer> mathiaz: no I need to change that, really it'd be great for everything to be reviewed
[16:28] <sommer> or as much as possible anyway
[16:28] <mathiaz> sommer: ok - we have some more time after FF to do documentation review
[16:28] <sommer> zul: I think there's a wiki page on the ec2?
[16:28] <zul> sommer: there is
[16:29] <sommer> mathiaz: yeppers
[16:29] <mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to mark all relevant section as Needs review rather then Done
[16:29] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to mark all relevant section as Needs review rather then Done
[16:29] <mathiaz> zul: link?
[16:31] <mathiaz> sommer: hm - well I'm not sure if there should be a section on EC2 in the server guide
[16:31] <sommer> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EC2StartersGuide ?
[16:31] <sommer> mathiaz: because it's proprietary?
[16:31] <mathiaz> sommer: on the eucalyptus and all the cloud stuff soren is working on make sense
[16:32] <zul> mathiaz: they use the same tools
[16:32] <sommer> mathiaz: ya I'll concentrate on that aspect
[16:33] <mathiaz> sommer: great - thnaks.
[16:33] <mathiaz> sommer: anything else on the documentation front?
[16:33] <sommer> mathiaz: don't think so
[16:33] <mathiaz> great - let's move on
[16:33] <mathiaz> that's all from last week meeting
[16:33] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Status of the mail-stack
[16:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  Status of the mail-stack
[16:34] <mathiaz> ivoks: ^^
[16:34] <ivoks> so, i have a solution for almost everything
[16:34] <ivoks> i've created a patch:
[16:34] <ivoks> http://www.init.hr/dev/jaunty/ubuntu-mail-server.debdiff
[16:34] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.init.hr/dev/jaunty/ubuntu-mail-server.debdiff
[16:34] <ivoks> it introduces a new binary package in dovecot - ubuntu-mail-server
[16:34] <cjwatson> why isn't this a seed-generated thing and done in ubuntu-meta?
[16:34] <ivoks> since dovecot uses ucf, i can 'steal' /etc/dovecot/dovecot.conf from dovecot-common
[16:35] <ivoks> cjwatson: mail server?
[16:35] <cjwatson> yes
[16:35] <cjwatson> seems pretty bizarre to me to have dovecot.conf not in dovecot-common, and to have ubuntu-mail-server not be a pure metapackage
[16:35] <cjwatson> violates several expectations
[16:36] <ivoks> cause i can't overwrite config file with package that's not owner of a config file
[16:36] <cjwatson> why not just change it in dovecot itself?
[16:36] <ivoks> cause not everybody uses postfix
[16:36] <mathiaz> cjwatson: the issue here is that we'd like to change the configuration of dovecot when postfix is installed
[16:36] <ivoks> and this configuration is tied up with postfix
[16:36] <cjwatson> I think you should create a separate configuration file rather than eating dovecot.conf, then
[16:37] <ivoks> if there's no postfix, dovecot won't start
[16:37] <cjwatson> add a dovecot-postfix.conf and have ubuntu-mail-server start dovecot with that
[16:37] <cjwatson> you may have managed to get away with it technically, but I think this approach is still a policy violation
[16:37] <nxvl> there isn't a devecot.d/*.conf stuff?
[16:38] <ivoks> cjwatson: i was looking how to avoid any policy violation
[16:38] <ivoks> but maybe i missed something :)
[16:38] <mathiaz> nxvl: it wouldn't work. the configuration file has to be modified
[16:38] <cjwatson> .d should, normally, be for when a set of files in a directory are concatenated to form a single configuration file
[16:38] <ivoks> nxvl: no, not possible
[16:38] <cjwatson> ivoks: the best way to do so is to use a separate configuration file
[16:38] <nxvl> mathiaz: oh, so it's not adding directives, but to modify the existent ones, ok make sense
[16:38] <mathiaz> nxvl: yes
[16:39] <ivoks> cjwatson: outside dovecot source?
[16:39] <ivoks> as a meta package
[16:39] <ivoks> ?
[16:39] <cjwatson> ivoks: not necessary if you give it a more descriptive name, like "dovecot-postfix"
[16:39] <cjwatson> then that could sensibly be in the dovecot source itself
[16:40] <ivoks> hm, but it's more than that...
[16:40] <ivoks> it's a product, isn't not just dovecot-postfix relation
[16:40] <nxvl> then dovecot-$product
[16:40] <mathiaz> ivoks: I think that for now, we're just looking at integrating dovecot and postfix
[16:40] <cjwatson> I honestly think ubuntu-* should be reserved for pure metapackages (dependencies only), particularly when the * coincides with an existing seed name
[16:40] <ivoks> still, i'd have to change init script
[16:41] <mathiaz> ivoks: once that's working we can look into the ubuntu-mail-server task
[16:41] <ivoks> cjwatson: ok, name is irrelevant
[16:41] <cjwatson> or a separate init script
[16:41] <cjwatson> when you find yourself trying to change configuration files of another package, it's an excellent sign that the design is wrong
[16:41] <ivoks> :)
[16:42] <ivoks> ok, i'll take another approach then
[16:42] <mathiaz> ivoks: ok - it seems that sasl integration of postfix and dovecot needs more discussion
[16:42] <ivoks> i just look at ucf as a perfect tool for this, but ok... :)
[16:42] <mathiaz> ivoks: what about using dovecot LDA as a default?
[16:43] <ivoks> mathiaz: everything is included in this diff
[16:43] <mathiaz> ivoks: right.
[16:43] <ivoks> maildir, sasl, lda...
[16:43] <mathiaz> ivoks: what's the default LDA for postfix now? procmail?
[16:43] <ivoks> default is postfix
[16:43] <ivoks> postfix delivers mail
[16:44] <mathiaz> ivoks: ok
[16:44] <ivoks> ok, back to start...
[16:44] <lamont> mathiaz: if procmail is unpacked when postfix is configured, then it defaults to using procmail
[16:44] <lamont> otherwise it just delivers mail
[16:45] <mathiaz> ivoks: how about dropping a dovecot-postfix.conf file and modify the dovecot init script to use that if it's there and use dovecot.conf if not?
[16:45] <mathiaz> lamont: could a similar hook be implemented if dovecot lda is there?
[16:45] <ivoks> mathiaz: well, that's what i do, since this is wrong
[16:46] <lamont> mathiaz: not that modifies dovecot, no.  unless dovecot provided an api
[16:46] <ivoks> well, dovecot can provide lda by default
[16:46] <mathiaz> lamont: in the postinst the following command is called: postconf -e "mailbox_command = /usr/lib/dovecot/deliver"
[16:46] <ivoks> that doesn't depend on postfix
[16:47] <ivoks> i'll do what cjwatson suggested
[16:48] <ivoks> another config, another init script
[16:49] <mathiaz> ivoks: why another init script?
[16:49] <ivoks> maybe creating dovecot-common-ums?
[16:49] <mathiaz> ivoks: I'd just modify the existing dovecot init script to look for /etc/dovecot/dovecot-postfix.conf
[16:50] <ivoks> mathiaz: right, but then i have to provide new init script in binary package
[16:50] <ivoks> mathiaz: i can't change dovcot-common's init script
[16:50] <mathiaz> ivoks: that's ok. we can modify dovecot-common init script
[16:50] <ivoks> so, why now create additional -common-xyz which would conflict with plain -common
[16:50] <ivoks> :)
[16:50] <mathiaz> ivoks: anyway - let's move on
[16:51] <mathiaz> ivoks: we can discuss that later.
[16:51] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Power management
[16:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  Power management
[16:51] <mathiaz> kirkland: ^^
[16:51] <kirkland> mathiaz: yessir
[16:51] <kirkland> mathiaz: okay, 2 things ....
[16:52] <kirkland> mathiaz: first thing i noticed, installing Jaunty yesterday, cpu frequency scaling was not immediately enabled
[16:52] <kirkland> mathiaz: i had to install powernowd
[16:52] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'm curious if we've considered adding this to the server seed before?
[16:52] <soren> kirkland: We have.
[16:52] <kirkland> mathiaz: ubuntu desktops install powernowd, and are configured to run with the "ondemand" governor by default
[16:52] <kirkland> soren: and?
[16:52] <soren> kirkland: Let me find the link...
[16:52] <soren> kirkland: I don't think it caused any objections, it just never happened.
[16:52] <kirkland> soren: ah
[16:53] <soren> I'll bet if I looked far enough down my todo list it'd be there somewhere.
[16:53] <kirkland> mathiaz: so i propose adding powernowd to the server seed
[16:53] <soren> Let me find the link, though.
[16:53] <kirkland> mathiaz: so i thought i'd bring it up here and see if there are any objections
[16:53] <kirkland> mathiaz: let me know if there's a better forum for posing that question, though
[16:54] <mathiaz> kirkland: how big is it?
[16:54] <soren> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2008-September/002184.html
[16:55] <mathiaz> kirkland: would that be considered as bloating the default install?
[16:55] <kirkland> Size: 27414
[16:55] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'd think not
[16:55] <kirkland> mathiaz: on the contrary, i'd argue that not having this makes Ubuntu servers rather wasteful on the power consumption front
[16:55] <kirkland> mathiaz: always running at full blast
[16:56] <kirkland> mathiaz: http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/p/powernowd/
[16:56] <kirkland> mathiaz: <30KB
[16:56] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'll chase the dependencies too
[16:57] <kirkland> mathiaz: there's a dep on "laptop-detect" that may not be necessary
=== cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson
[16:57] <mathiaz> kirkland: ok - I think it makes sense
[16:57] <kirkland> mathiaz: cool
[16:57] <kirkland> mathiaz: second thing here ....
[16:58] <kirkland> mathiaz: on that fresh jaunty server install, i also tested suspend and hibernate
[16:58] <kirkland> mathiaz: as well as resume
[16:58] <kirkland> mathiaz: all of them worked beautifully
[16:58] <kirkland> mathiaz: i installed pm-utils
[16:58] <mathiaz> kirkland: great
[16:58] <kirkland> mathiaz: and used pm-suspend and pm-hibernate
[16:58] <kirkland> mathiaz: and i was able to wake it up using wakeonlan
[16:59] <kirkland> mathiaz: i have filed an MIR for wakeonlan package
[16:59] <kirkland> mathiaz: i couldn't find a WoL package in main
[16:59] <mathiaz> kirkland: ok.
[16:59] <mathiaz> kirkland: anything else (we're running out time)
[16:59] <kirkland> mathiaz: there's one thing you have to do on the server to enable it to be awoken
[16:59] <mathiaz> kirkland: ?
[16:59] <kirkland> mathiaz: you have to run this ethtool command
[16:59] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'm going to try and figure out what that's actually doing
[16:59] <kirkland> mathiaz: and if that's something we could configure in /etc
[17:00] <mathiaz> kirkland: ok.
[17:00] <mathiaz> kirkland: anything else on this subject?
[17:00] <kirkland> mathiaz: so i'd like anyone to test suspend/hibernate
[17:00] <kirkland> if possible on their servers
[17:00] <mathiaz> kirkland: seems like a good candidate for a call for testing blog post
[17:00] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[17:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
[17:01] <mathiaz> next week , same place, same time?
[17:01] <sommer> +1
[17:01] <Adri2000> no open discussion? wanted to bring up another topic
[17:01] <Adri2000> (sorry for not putting it on the agenda)
[17:01] <mathiaz> Adri2000: we're running out of time
[17:01] <mathiaz> Adri2000: add it to the agenda and we'll talk about it next week
[17:01] <mathiaz> see you all next week, same place, same time
[17:02] <Adri2000> hmm, it's about including a new upstream version, so FF is approaching...
[17:02] <Adri2000> s/so/and/
[17:02] <mathiaz> Adri2000: let's talk about that in #ubuntu-server
[17:02] <Adri2000> ok
[17:02] <mathiaz> thanks all all
[17:02] <mathiaz> #endmeeting

MeetingLogs/Server/20090210 (last edited 2009-02-10 22:24:33 by mathiaz)