Sunday, June 14th, 2009, 7:00pm (1900) PDT


  1. OSCON Planning

    1. Network drop
      1. Prices for network drop were $400 for a single IP, and $200 more per additional computer, so no network drop.
      2. For future reference, benefits of Internet access: access to documentation wikis, demoing package installation and removal (though this can be done with an alternate CD instead)
      3. Could also do Internet using mobile broadband card or router, which would be much cheaper
    2. Power
      1. Power costs will be larger than anticipated, so we need to double-check on whether we have the money for it
      2. Options: $250 (for 500W) to $300 (for 1200W)
      3. Postponing decision until we figure out what we want.
    3. Booth planning
      1. Computer running jdeslip's Ubuntu demo video
      2. Going to keep the booth layout open: tables along back and side walls (like SCaLE booth rather than in-front

      3. jdeslip volunteered to print a large Ubuntu California banner for the back wall; Flannel will hash out design with him
    4. Discussion on sharing with LUGs
      1. Discussion about open layout + demos not leaving space for LUG people.
      2. Vote on whether splitting the booth with LUG people is feasible didn't reach consensus.
      3. Vote with consensus that either way, we should promote LUGs with flyers.
  2. Podcast discussion postponed
  3. Approval status update
    1. Some Projects pages on the wiki need tidying up, and most need links to mailing list added
    2. The approval app itself also needs work

    3. Apropos: our logo was deemed cool on effiejayx's blog

    4. Time frame for approval continues to be between OSCON and Karmic release.
  4. Renaming Launchpad Group
    1. Launchpad group will be renamed from ~california.team to ~ubuntu-california after the meeting to reflect the LoCo naming guidelines.

    2. Wiki pages, bookmarks, etc. need to be changed, and the group itself might break.
    3. Flannel will write an announcement about it to the mailing list
  5. Discussion on addition/removal of User Groups link on wiki menu
    1. Flannel (who removed the link) feels that, since it's a list of LUGs in California, and the menu should be for LoCo stuff, it gives the false impression that they're our meetings.

    2. Grant feels that, since interacting with LUGs is part of a LoCo's mission, the link should stay there.

    3. rww brought up the idea of reinstating the link with altered text to make it clear that the meetings are LUG meetings, not LoCo meetings.

    4. Eventual decision that Grant would come up with some alternate text and submit it to the mailing list.
  6. Meeting adjourned, further discussions moved to mailing list.

Original Agenda

  1. OSCON Planning

    1. Booth Furnishing Updates (power, network, etc)
    2. Booth Planning (what do volunteers want to provide Oscon attendees?)
    3. Discussion on sharing booth space with LUGs?

  2. Approval Status Updates

  3. LoCo Podcast

  4. Discussion of restoring link from CaliforniaTeam/Menu to CaliforniaTeam/Projects/UserGroupContacts/Groups


19:10 < Flannel> Welcome everyone to our June 14th, the "Is it actually not summer yet?" edition.
19:10 < Flannel> Our agenda for the evening is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/09June14
19:11 < Flannel> Currently consisting of: OSCON Planning, Approval Process Updates, our Podcast status, and a discussion about our Wiki menu.
19:11 < _dfox> hi all
19:12 < jdeslip> dfox: hey david
19:12 < Flannel> If anyone has anything to add to the agenda, feel free to do so at any time, although given the busy nature of the meeting, try and pick a time in-between topics.
19:12 < Flannel> Anyone have anything to add currently?
19:12 < Flannel> Alright.  We'll go ahead and dive into our first topic
19:13 < Flannel> We're attending, and having a booth at OSCON at the end of next month.
19:14 < MarkT> for OSCON 3 of the women (maybe more) in our group would like to do a Birds of a feather & help tabling
19:14 < Flannel> MarkT: Which group?
19:14 < Grantbow> MarkT: you mean Gidget Kitchen group?
19:14 < MarkT> yes
19:15 < Flannel> MarkT: That'll be tabling with the group of LUGs?
19:15 < MarkT> 3 of 5 board members are chicks ;-)
19:15 < MarkT> If we are invited
19:15 < Grantbow> are they subscribed to the ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com mail list?
19:16 < Flannel> MarkT: We don't need commitments like that just yet, we're still in the planning stages.
19:16 < nhaines> Err, maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves a little here?
19:16 < MarkT> A few will be here next week
19:16 < Flannel> The first item on the agenda is some status updates/discussion about the amenities of the both.
19:16 < Grantbow> MarkT: sounds like we should talk about this offline
19:16 < Grantbow> or outside the meeting at least
19:17 < MarkT> Grantbow: sure are we doing it old-school or progressive?
19:17 < Flannel> Alright, so.  Two of the things we had talked about were power and a network drop.
19:18 < MarkT> sorry group
19:18 < Flannel> The prices for the network drop were $400 for a single IP, and $200 more per additional computer (even if we're using NAT)
19:18 < troyready> LAME
19:18 < Flannel> While I think it's safe to say we won't be having network access at our booth,
19:19 < jdeslip> Well, I think network is not as important as power.
19:19 < Flannel> I'd like to ask for comments from people on some benefits a network drop *would* give a booth, so we can keep them in mind in the future.
19:19 < Flannel> ISOs we can get beforehand, but what benefit does having a live connection to the internet provide to a booth?
19:19 < _dfox> i don't see the point of a network drop
19:19 < jdeslip> It might help people at the booth to answer questions from people
19:20 < _dfox> jack, good point
19:20 < Flannel> so we can connect to our second brains
19:20 < jdeslip> or, to demo adding and removing software / using launchpad etc...
19:20 < MarkT> tether it to laptops running on battery backup if needed 12v as needed
19:20 < rww> yeah. access to help.ubuntu.com would be useful if we get tech questions or "will this work with my hardware" questions
19:20 < _dfox> we can't anticipate questions
19:20 < Flannel> We'd be able to demo adding/removing software without a network connection.
19:20 < MarkT> inverters can run laptops I have one loaner
19:21 < jdeslip> so, there is free wifi you mean?
19:21 < nhaines> We can always prepare by running apt-get with -d if we want to demo installing.
19:21 < Flannel> jdeslip: We're not sure.  We certainly can't count on it.
19:21 < rww> jdeslip: you can demo adding and removing software using repos from an Alternate CD, or using the package cache
19:21 < rww> neither of which need any intarwebs
19:21 < jdeslip> rww: that is true
19:21 < Flannel> Or having a computer with packages on it.
19:22 < MarkT> rww: true!
19:22 < Grantbow> I suspect having a network connection would save quite a bit of preparation time for demos.
19:22 < Flannel> We can run a NAT, we just can't connect to the outside world
19:22 < Flannel> Grantbow: What do you mean?
19:22 < Grantbow> rather than preparing everything ahead of time and being stuck without a network connection.
19:22 < rww> Flannel: and we'll have at least a local network in the future for 'buntustand anyway, right?
19:23 < Flannel> rww: If we want one, we can have one, yes.
19:23 < MarkT> Could someone set up a mirror pc with the repo - like freegeek does
19:23 < Flannel> Yeah, that's more or less trivial to do
19:23 < Flannel> packages aren't an issue.
19:24 < jdeslip> How does the price of network compare to the price of power out of curiousity?
19:24 < Flannel> jdeslip: We'll get to power in a moment
19:24 < Grantbow> The ability to search for answers to questions seems the most important point brought up so far.
19:24 < Flannel> So, from what I can tell, connecting to the internet just for "internal" usage would be the main/only downside to not having it
19:24 < rww> looking at just OSCON right now, does everyone agree that the $400+ internets aren't something we're interested in?
19:25 < jdeslip> Flannel: I understand, but I think it will help the discussion of network if we know the relative costs
19:25 < Flannel> jdeslip: 400 is more than power alone
19:25 < Flannel> er, power is somewhere from 250-300+, depending on how much wattage we want
19:26 < jdeslip> Flannel: Thanks
19:26 < dragon_> a sprint mobile broadband card would cost less than $400
19:26 < jdeslip> LOL
19:26 < jdeslip> I was thinking smartphone
19:26 < Flannel> Alright, so, sounds like no one thinks its worth it to pay for internet.
19:27 < Grantbow> phone use is a good fallback for phones that can run a browser.
19:27 < Flannel> alright, so, the next item is power.
19:27 < _dfox> I read on the mailing list that power would be donated. Is that finalized?
19:27 < jdeslip> I personally think power is essential.  It seems I am late to the game and it is has been donated.
19:27 < dragon_> iPhone or android can be used as bridges to provide internet access on laptops.. if someone could get that going
19:27 < Flannel> hold up
19:28 < Flannel> We had someone come forward and volunteer to donate power, but from what I understand, at that point we were under hte impression that power would be something like $120 or so.
19:28 < dragon_> jdeslip: it's never too late ;)
19:29 < jdeslip> If it is matter of finding more money.  I will offer $60 or so more to put us closer.
19:29 < Flannel> But now we've discovered a few extra fees, etc.  and its looking to be more like $250 (for 500W) to $300 (for 1200W)
19:29 < Grantbow> I guess Ernest couldn't make it to the meeting.  The link to the email was removed from the agenda.
19:30 < Flannel> So with the increased (doubled, almost tripled) cost, I don't think its really appropriate to assume that donation still stands.
19:30 < rww> We should get a really large handcrank and take turns generating our own power :P
19:30 < erichammond> I can add $100 towards power.
19:30 < jdeslip> 500W might be a bit limiting.  I am hoping to convince you guys later in the meeting that it is a good idea to have a demo video running on loop on a monitor or lcd tv.
19:31 < Flannel> 500W, from what we guesstimated last night, is approximately two computers.
19:31 < Grantbow> depends on the computers, more than two OLPC XO-1s, haha.
19:31 < Flannel> Two desktops
19:32 < Flannel> If we're demoing Ubuntu, I imagine we won't want to be doing it on laptops
19:32 < _dfox> of course, laptops would consume less but the larger lcd monitors eat a lot of power, don't thay
19:32 < jdeslip> A LCD TV runs on about ~100 Watts
19:32 < Flannel> _dfox: Yeah
19:32 < jdeslip> I do think if we are paying $250 we might as well pay $300 ...
19:32 < dragon_> laptops connected to LCD should work
19:32  * kendrick finishes one thing, notices nothing said (he thinks?) about LUG participation, runs to get chicken off the grill
19:32 < jdeslip> dragon_: true
19:32 < Flannel> So, 1200W is 50 more than 500W, and then 2400W is 80 more than 1200W (130 more than 50W)
19:33 < Flannel> er, 500W
19:33 < dragon_> Flannel: so 2400 costs $330?
19:33 < jdeslip> I think 2400 would be way overkill.
19:33 < Flannel> 2400W costs 250 + 120 setup fees
19:33 < dragon_> $380, sorry
19:34 < Flannel> setup fees are a minimum of 1 hour setup, and half hour take down, at 85 an hour.
19:35 < jdeslip> Flannel: the setup fees are just for power?  or to setup the booth?
19:35 < dragon_> we can set it up if they provide us with only a live wire ;)
19:35 < Flannel> So really, we need to reevaluate our power needs after we figure out what we want our booth to have.
19:35 < Grantbow> dragon_: not with the unions around
19:35 < rww> and figure out what we want the booth to have with the cost of power in mind
19:35 < Flannel> Since that'll let us know what we need power wise.
19:35 < Flannel> right.
19:36 < Flannel> Since all this money would go a *long* way towards professionally printing materials
19:36 < Flannel> or, back to our gas/parking money ;)
19:36 < Flannel> So, lets postpone the power decisions (how much, etc) until after we decide what we want
19:37 < dragon_> Is Canonical going to sponsor something?
19:37 < nhaines> dragon_: they typically do not.
19:37 < Flannel> We do have a deadline though.  If we want to order power, if we don't do it by the 10th, it goes up, by about $40
19:37 < MarkT> ubuntulive-mini?
19:37 < nhaines> dragon_: Sometimes they have their own presence at conventions like these, but we don't know what they're planning.
19:38 < sn9> <unrelated rant>external hard disks and enclosures always have ridiculously bad power supplies</unrelated rant>
19:38 < Flannel> So, moving on.  What do we want to have at our booth?
19:38 < dragon_> free beer..
19:38 < jdeslip> I would like to propose my video idea.
19:39 < MarkT> a graph of ubuntu  adoption
19:39 < Grantbow> Keep in mind the audience for whom we are doing things.
19:39 < nhaines> jdeslip: do you have a video prepared?
19:39 < MarkT> our line is steadily going up
19:39 < MarkT> we are becoming less-so the linux for dummies
19:39 < jdeslip> We would basically record a ubuntu desktop at 1680x1050 for 5-7 minutes demoing the desktop and some apps.  Then play it back on loop.
19:40 < Grantbow> nhaines: jdeslip's existing video looked good today.
19:40 < jdeslip> nhaines: I have a demo video I have created.
19:40 < jdeslip> I showed it at BerkeleyLUG today
19:40 < Flannel> Back to the audience: there's no cost to get in, so audience can be technical and non, although I'm not sure about the traditional OSCON crowd
19:41 < jdeslip> I can send it to youtube tomorrow if you like.
19:41 < Flannel> We will get a lot of traffic where our booth is.
19:41 < nhaines> jdeslip: that would be nice!  :)
19:41 < Flannel> Well, of the smaller booths.
19:42 < erichammond> Include the Big Buck Bunny movie in the video loop (made with Ubuntu)
19:42 < rww> Flannel: is there a map of where the booths are somewhere?
19:42 < jdeslip> nhaines: I think ubuntu-ca members could take a look at the existing demo video and then give feedback on improving it.
19:43 < dragon_> is it safe to assume that the audience will be aware of the concepts of Open Source and Free Software?
19:43 < Grantbow> ubuntu-ca is canada, lol
19:43 < vsayer> will we have laptops or desktops at OSCON?
19:43 < jdeslip> But, I hope I can convince you at least that having such a video (if well prepared) is a good idea
19:43 < Flannel> rww: I'm trying to find it online, if not I'll upload
19:43 < rww> dragon_: I'd say so. If not, I imagine the *OS*CON literature has an explanation :)
19:43 < sn9> ubuntu-us-ca
19:43 < jdeslip> Grantbow: oops :)
19:43 < vsayer> if we have laptops, make sure you use the powertop tweaks to save on power
19:44 < dragon_> rww: yes, so most of them will already have heard of Ubuntu at least once, and will be interested in knowing more
19:44 < vsayer> another power saving feature: CRTs that project darker colors will use less power
19:44 < vsayer> according to killawatt
19:44 < dragon_> vsayer: what about LCDs?
19:44 < Flannel> vsayer: That's correct.
19:44 < Flannel> LCDs there's no saving
19:45 < vsayer> LCDs have a backlight
19:45 < jdeslip> CRTs also look pretty  crappy though
19:45 < vsayer> that uses constant power
19:45 < Grantbow> rww: I've printed the map.   I am pretty sure it's in that private site for exhibitor information.
19:45 < jdeslip> We don'
19:45 < jdeslip> t want to look like we are 90's ;)
19:45 < vsayer> so have a dark ubuntu theme
19:45 < Flannel> er, someone tell me a file-post-site thing
19:45 < MarkT> vsayer: powertop?
19:45 < vsayer> for laptops
19:45 < vsayer> intel laptops
19:45 < Flannel> Guys, lets save the power discussion for later.
19:45 < vsayer> sure
19:45 < vsayer> moving on
19:45 < rww> Grantbow: there's a private site for exhibitor information? I'm so out of the loop :(
19:45 < Flannel> Our current topic is : what we want at our booth
19:46 < Grantbow> rww: I think it was sent to the mail list.  If someone doesn't get to it first I'll be sure you get the info.
19:46 < Flannel> rww: http://www.quickfilepost.com/download.do?get=76eb3abd6d762805d79235715feca416
19:47 < Flannel> (and everyone else, that's a map of the floor)
19:47 < Flannel> We are T4 (left bottom)
19:47 < jdeslip> Here is what I invision:  A Nice Large (Color) Ubuntu Banner.  One ongoing video demo.  One Other pc connected to large lcd monitor/tv to run interactive demos.  Ubuntu brochures/disks.
19:47 < rww> Flannel: ty
19:48 < Flannel> One thing we've always done (and had great success with) is kept the booth open.  We don't sit behind the tables, etc.
19:48 < MarkT> tuxpaint on some oldlaptops also
19:48 < Flannel> If anything, they're next/behind/whatever us.
19:48 < jdeslip> Flannel: that is probably good. If we have enough people, we can probably have a couple people behind AND a couple people in front gathering people in.
19:48 < vsayer> Free CDs, only once they've had a meaningful discussion with us
19:49 < vsayer> idea taken from BerkeleyLUG
19:49 < erichammond> I thought kids playing the goop game looked good at the booth at SCALE.
19:49 < _dfox> lots of people are gravitating towards sub or mini notebooks. having one running ubuntu (or even a spare doing an install) might be neat
19:49 < jdeslip> vsayer: I agree if people stop for a minute, give a cd.  But don't just hand them out to everyone we see or they will appear worthless.
19:49 < rww> Photo from 2008 SCaLE, for reference: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nathanhaines/2353642188/
19:49 < Flannel> Thanks rww, I was looking for that
19:50 < Grantbow> a suggestion today from Rick Moen was to have a designated greeter at all times.
19:50 < jdeslip> _dfox: I agree, add a working demo of UNR to my list of things I invision
19:50 < erichammond> Has any group tried "$1 donation for a CD" or is selling things against the rules there?
19:50 < dragon_> The CDs from Canonical look quite professional. Is there a feasible way of printing similar labels for our CDs?
19:50 < Flannel> erichammond: For SCaLE we thought about it, and decided against it
19:51 < Flannel> erichammond: Other groups did it at SCaLE, I haven't heard anything against it for OSCON, so its almost certainly not outlawed (but who knows)
19:51 < MarkT> Nice  labels are available for printing - ask grant
19:51 < kendrick> rww - i like that booth layout
19:51 < jdeslip> I think the worst part of the pic is the tiny ubuntu sign.  the booth to the right has a way better banner ;)
19:51 < kendrick> my lug needs to do that next time we do a booth
19:51 < Grantbow> MarkT: I use sharpie markers and the folded cover created by Flannel.
19:51 < dragon_> I agree with the idea of not asking for donations. Our goal is to inform the people.
19:51 < Flannel> jdeslip: That was the sign given to us to indicate our booth
19:52 < nhaines> jdeslip: it was provided by SCaLE.  I don't think we managed to have one for SCaLE this year either.
19:52 < Flannel> No, we are still without large vinyl/whatever signage.
19:52 < jdeslip> Flannel: Ah, I see.  Well, we should definitely supplement any such thing with a nice banner for OSCON.
19:52 < jdeslip> Flannel: Perhaps I can help us print such a thing.
19:52 < Grantbow> jdeslip: volunteering?
19:53 < Flannel> jdeslip: If you give us specs, we can come up with a design.
19:53  * Grantbow cheers
19:53 < nhaines> I think this is the largest sign we've managed to come with with.  :)  http://www.flickr.com/photos/nathanhaines/2418254782/
19:53 < jdeslip> Grantbow: I guess I am.  Our department (UC Physics) have a printer for such things.
19:53 < Grantbow> nice
19:53 < Grantbow> T - 8 minutes, lol
19:53 < Flannel> jdeslip: We tried to get a large one like that printed for SCaLE, and then had some technical difficulties.  But yeah, something like that would be appreciated.
19:54 < Flannel> Ok, lets get this going again and get to the core of the booth.
19:54 < Flannel> The focus of the booth is to:
19:54 < rww> Grantbow: huzzah for running over time :)
19:54 < jdeslip> Flannel: You can put me down for providing one.  We should discuss dimensions at some point.
19:54 < Flannel> inform people about Ubuntu, right? and give them CDs when they're interested.
19:54 < Flannel> jdeslip: yeah, we'll talk afterwards
19:54 < jdeslip> I also think the lcd screen would be better if were playing the video I suggested instead of just a webpage.
19:54 < jdeslip> Nobody is going to stop and read a webpage
19:55 < dragon_> we can also make their USB drives bootable
19:55 < Flannel> No, a webpage isn't ideal.
19:55 < rww> By the way, if anyone has to leave before we're done, the logs from this meeting will get posted to the agenda page (it's in the topic, I think, and was linked earlier).
19:55 < vsayer> the more eye candy, the better
19:55 < rww> yeah, I like jdeslip's video idea too :)
19:55 < Flannel> If we're going to have all these demos, it sounds like we're going to use our entire front of the booth.
19:55 < MarkT> The old video with Mandela never hurt us attracting the idealists
19:55 < Grantbow>  to get the topic again type "/topic" in your IRC client
19:55 < Flannel> So, we won't have any room for LUGs (which is theoretically coming up in a bit)
19:56 < kendrick> ok. :)
19:56 < jdeslip> But, i don't think we want volume on the video.  the mandela video is not much good without that
19:56 < vsayer> Ubuntu Accessories: https://usshop.ubuntu.com/category.php?catid=2
19:56 < rww> Strap demo computers to the LUG members. Problem sovled!
19:56 < Flannel> kendrick: We haven't decided that yet, we just need to weigh our options
19:56 < kendrick> any other LUG folks here, aside from me?
19:56 < jdeslip> kendrick: I am a LUG person.
19:56 < Grantbow> Flannel: any room?  We'll have room for a flyer at least, don't you think?
19:56 < kendrick> Flannel: well, if you do a booth in the U-config like in that photo, there really isn't room for us
19:56 < kendrick> jdeslip: oh hi
19:56 < MarkT> rww: I'll bring the duct tape
19:56 < kendrick> Grantbow: well, flyer != volunteers staffing
19:56 < kendrick> which, again, is fine
19:56 < Flannel> kendrick: Right, but if we weren't doing demo computers, we'd have room.
19:57 < kendrick> gives us more time to go look around, if we do go. hehehe
19:57 < jdeslip> and as much as I would like to promote BerkeleyLUG (since we are so young) I don't think it is in ubuntu-us-ca's interest
19:57 < jdeslip> Providing a flyer is more appropriate if you ask me.
19:57 < Flannel> I just want to make sure everyone's aware of all of the tradeoffs we get the pleasure of playing with.
19:57 < Grantbow> jdeslip: don't be so sure
19:57 < kendrick> jdeslip: and that's something other tables can help with (too/instead) <-- LUG flyers
19:57 < Grantbow> Flannel: +1
19:57 < rww> But yeah, I think one demo computer would be fine, combined with handouts for Ubuntu info and lots of talking. And then the LUG people can be there too, which is something I'm in favor of.
19:58 < vsayer> Advocate "No Viruses, No Spyware", this worked for me on the ubuntu flyers when I put them up at the University of Virginia Campus the year I graduated
19:58 < vsayer> What's the OSCON demographic?
19:58 < Flannel> From what I've played around with, we've got enough room for three people across the front, something like this:
19:58 < nhaines> I am always quick to bring up the topic of LUGs when people ask how they can be more involved.  It'd be great to have LUG members and info there.
19:58 < kendrick> vsayer: but also add: "No usable sound system"
19:58  * kendrick ducks
19:59 < vsayer> hehe
19:59 < Flannel> http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1969/oscon2009.png
19:59 < dragon_> there is a list of things to talk about somewhere on the Ubuntu wiki
19:59 < Grantbow> nhaines: +1
19:59 < vsayer> who's our audience?
19:59 < vsayer> it's going to be computer savvy people
19:59 < vsayer> who use linux, mac, and windows, right?
19:59 < Flannel> That would be one possible way we'd be able to split the booth, and still fit some people in there.
20:00 < jdeslip> I think if there is going to be a split booth, it should be done right.  So that it looks good and coordinated.
20:00 < MarkT> Podcast is early - but if we can get it done in the next 2 weeks -it can be used to attract new converts to the exhibit hall
20:00 < Flannel> With an additional table across the back, we'd hav plenty of space to stick stuff to grab, and also plenty ofspace to talk to people
20:00 < kendrick> and obviously split
20:00 < dragon_> vsayer: mostly those interested in learning about Open Source (OSCON)
20:00 < jdeslip> I am somewhat worried that if we mix the two it might look a little unprofessional.
20:00 < jdeslip> Unless we are careful
20:01 < dragon_> are we going to stick to Gnome in our demos?
20:01 < Flannel> I agree.  If we do it, it has to be done well.
20:01 < MarkT> jdeslip: ubuntu can almost be all things to all people
20:01 < Flannel> dragon_: We don't have to, no.
20:01 < vsayer> i think Gnome would be best
20:01  * kendrick cries
20:01 < vsayer> demonstrate apt-get and synaptic
20:01 < kendrick> sorry
20:01  * kendrick kries
20:01 < vsayer> that's a selling point
20:01 < jdeslip> LUGs are inherently more relaxed / casual organizations.  But, if we are there representing Ubuntu, it should be professional and high quality.
20:02 < Grantbow> kendrick: lol
20:02 < Flannel> Alright.  Before we cut this conversation short.
20:02 < MarkT> sorry
20:02 < jdeslip> If we knew we were representing just ubuntu-us-ca and not Ubuntu as a whole it would be a no brainer to mix with LUGs I think.
20:02 < Flannel> Since, I think we could talk for hours on this (and hope we do)
20:02 < dragon_> it'd probably help to show them how efficiently xfce runs on the antique boxes
20:02 < kendrick> jdeslip: and, exuse me for not knowing, Ubuntu-California is _meant_ to _represent_ ubuntu
20:02 < Flannel> jdeslip: what do you mean?
20:02 < kendrick> not just be a 'club of folks who like it'
20:03 < kendrick> correct?
20:03 < Flannel> We are representing Ubuntu, yes.
20:03 < nhaines> kendrick: right.
20:03 < kendrick> ok, then i agree
20:03 < kendrick> be careful with us LUG yahoos ;)
20:03 < Flannel> (we're also looking for people who want to help us represent Ubuntu, for that matter)
20:03 < kendrick> siiigh
20:03  * kendrick remembers that one guy at LWE one year who was THROWING CANDY AT PEOPLE
20:03 < kendrick> holy CRAP! >:^(
20:04 < vsayer> ubuntu-inspired candy?!!
20:04 < jdeslip> kendrick: sorry if I offended you.  not trying to downplay your LUGs or LUGs in general.
20:04 < Grantbow> Fedora has their faux tattoos they give out, lol
20:04 < kendrick> so yeah.  as the LUG organizer, i _also_ agree that we prob shouldn't share unless we can make it look like we're literally a diff booth
20:04 < vsayer> can we find candy that matches with ubuntu?
20:04 < jdeslip> kendrick: Since, if you do get a LUG booth (be it Ubuntu or not) I am hoping to contribute
20:04 < jdeslip> :)
20:04 < kendrick> jdeslip: oh, no.  it's just good to understand what Ubuntu-Calif is representing
20:04 < vsayer> whethers original
20:04 < kendrick> jdeslip: cool thx :)
20:05 < kendrick> (we ARE on a waiting list w/ o'reilly)
20:05 < dragon_> have we ordered Ubuntu stickers for distribution?
20:05 < Flannel> Alright.  since we could do this for hours,
20:05 < Flannel> lets postpone this until after the meeting,
20:05 < Flannel> er, till the end.
20:05 < kendrick> (and i can ask Marsee @ o'reilly if she can suggest other .ORG tables that would be more 'relaxed' tables, and also be willing to share...)
20:05 < Flannel> Cover some other topics, and then come back to it.
20:06 < jdeslip> ok
20:06 < vsayer> make sure we take a camera and document OSCON and put it up on ubuntu wiki
20:06 < Flannel> Is there a consensus at this point that we probably wouldn't be able to effectively split with LUGs?
20:06 < erichammond> Flannel: +1 (on not being able to split)
20:07 < Flannel> anyone else? +1 -1 +0?
20:07 < jdeslip> That is my opinion - but I think there is room for cooperation - such as handing out flyers or advertising local lugs on a poster
20:07 < rww> -1. I think we could do it if we spent time figuring out how.
20:07 < MarkT> +1 able to split IF they can represent Ubuntu in a non-mocking manner
20:07 < Flannel> MarkT: that's a -1 ;)
20:07 < erichammond> Though I think it would be great to (1) have local LUG members helping talk about Ubuntu with occasional plugs for the LUG and (2) have a small section for LUG flyers.
20:07 < vsayer> -1
20:07 < Grantbow> rww: split a 9x9 in half?
20:08 < jdeslip> +1
20:08 < _dfox> if there is room on the flyer, we could mention the area lugs' home pages. don't think there will be enough room in the booth for lug reps
20:08 < troyready> +1
20:08 < Flannel> Alright.  So, we haven't decided that we can't split.
20:08 < kendrick> hhaha
20:08 < jdeslip> ;)
20:08 < Flannel> (splitting is still an option at this point)
20:08 < Grantbow> +1 for a 50%/50% split, but there's things we can do together
20:08 < dragon_> don't we have any UUGs?
20:08 < MarkT> it could be split time wise - not space-wise
20:08 < Flannel> Ok, lets do this then:
20:08 < rww> Yeah, I'm with Grant that we can't split it evenly, but I think we can make *some* room for LUG people.
20:09 < Flannel> Can I get a +1/-1/+0 on: Whether we should promote LUGs (through fliers, or otherwise) at all at our booth, when appropriate.
20:09 < nhaines> +1 I don't think we can split.
20:09 < MarkT> -1 Im rainman again
20:09 < jdeslip> +1
20:09 < Grantbow> +1
20:09 < nhaines> +1 Let's definitely promote LUGs!
20:09 < rww> +1 on LUG promotion
20:09 < vsayer> +1 changed vote
20:09 < erichammond> +1 LUG fliers
20:09 < dragon_> +1
20:10 < Flannel> Alright, so, we at least aren't ambivalent on that.
20:10 < Flannel> Ok, so, lets come back to this, and do a lightning round/glance over of some other topics.
20:10 < Flannel> Just the ones that need mentioning tonight.
20:10 < Flannel> So, Podcast doesn't seem time-sensitive.
20:10 < kendrick> btw, thx for the consideration, in any case :D
20:11 < kendrick> if i haven't thanked you all, yet :)
20:11 < Flannel> Approval status? rww? want to give a quick sentence on those updates?
20:11 < rww> nhaines: go make that Podcast page (if you didn't already). I'm getting bored of seeing the broken link to it :P
20:11 < rww> Flannel: sure
20:11 < nhaines> rww: hehe, yes.
20:12 < rww> The wiki itself is almost there. Some of the Projects pages could do with some tidying up, and I need to go through the mailing list archives and find links to threads where we discussed projects. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/ApprovalApplication also needs layout and content work.
20:13 < Flannel> rww: I can help with the ML threads
20:13 < Grantbow> rww: thanks for your hard work on this
20:13 < Flannel> Also, our meeting summaries are all caught up, and a good chunk of the other TDL stuff is taken care of as well.
20:13 < Flannel> Also, (this is only slightly relevant), our LoCo logo was given a +1 the other day by effiejayx: http://effiejayx.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/cool-loco-team-logos/
20:14 < nhaines> Yeah!
20:14 < Flannel> so, yay us for being so awesome.
20:14  * Grantbow cheers
20:14 < kendrick> heheh
20:14  * troyready says whoohooo
20:14 < kendrick> nice :)
20:14 < rww> The ToDoList is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/ToDoList. Apart from Projects page stuff and the application itself, we just need a meeting summary from SCaLE. I think Yasumoto volunteered to do that at some point.
20:15 < Flannel> For those of you who weren't around, scunizi put together the final logo, which was quite fun, and ended up with ideas/contributions from all of us.
20:15 < rww> So yeah, the time frame from a few meetings ago was some time between OSCON and Karmic, which I still think is reasonable :)
20:15 < nhaines> Sounds like we're right on track, then.
20:15 < Flannel> If you're interested in hearing more about that lore, nhaines and I can get our rocking chairs and tell you about some other time.
20:15 < rww> Grantbow: You're welcome. Thanks for yours too
20:16 < rww> Flannel: are you going to move the Launchpad team tonight? My connection dropped right after we discussed it, so I didn't get a chance to ask.
20:18 < Flannel> rww: That do it for approval status?
20:18 < kendrick> totally unrelated... lugod's logo is a davis watertower with "LUGOD" and a penguin on it, instead of "UC Davis".  my son and i were biking today and he saw a water tower and said "look! penguin!" :)
20:18 < rww> Flannel: yeah, that's all I can think of
20:18 < Flannel> netsplit?
20:18 < jdeslip> kendrick: LOL nice
20:18 < Grantbow> have we taken care of everything for tonight?
20:18 < rww> kendrick: cute :)
20:18 < kendrick> yeah. early indoctrindation.  (he's 2.5yr old)
20:19 < nhaines> Grantbow: we're halfway through.
20:19 < kendrick> he also yells "LOOK!  KUNBUNTOO!" when we boot our laptops
20:19 < Flannel> Oh, hey, I'm alive.
20:19 < nhaines> Flannel: yup!
20:19 < rww> Grantbow: podcast and the User Group Contacts link in Menu to go.
20:19 < Flannel> We'll skip podcast.
20:19 < Flannel> Grantbow: Did you want to talk about the Menu today? or postpone?
20:19 < Grantbow> podcast was mentioned
20:20 < jdeslip> then are we continuing discussion on OSCON Power / LUG Sharing?
20:20 < Grantbow> Flannel: up to you
20:21 < Flannel> rww: Right.  I'll mention that right now.
20:21 < Flannel> We found out that it's now trivial to move our Launchpad page
20:21 < Flannel> (from ~california.team to ~california-team)
20:21 < Flannel> So, that'll happen tonight after the meeting.  So if you have any URLs anywhere, be sure to update them
20:22 < Flannel> (this will go out on the ML too)
20:22 < rww> Flannel: ~ubuntu-california, according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamHowto#For%20the%20United%20States
20:22 < Flannel> Er, did they update the guidelines again?
20:22 < nhaines> Hmm, ~ubuntu-california might be nicer.
20:22 < Flannel> Ah, so it is.
20:22 < Flannel> Ok, ~ubuntu-california is what its supposed to be (now)
20:22 < Grantbow> better double check before changing it
20:22 < Flannel> so, that's what it will be.
20:22 < Flannel> Anyway, it might go off without a hitch
20:23 < rww> Flannel: it didn't change this year, no ;)
20:23 < Flannel> or we might be stuck in a halfway state
20:23 < Flannel> So, just so everyone knows.  Either way, there'll be a mailing list announcement about it.
20:23 < MarkT> no podcast?
20:24 < jdeslip> MarkT: I think just no discussion of podcast today
20:24 < MarkT> Will anyone be mad if us in NorCal do our own?
20:24 < nhaines> MarkT: we don't have a monopoly on podcasts.  :)
20:24 < Flannel> MarkT: An Ubuntu podcast?
20:24 < jdeslip> MarkT: Perhaps just don't call it the Ubuntu-US-CA podcast ;)
20:24 < nhaines> We're 25 minutes over time tonight (which is not bad!) so we're going to talk about podcast in our next meeting.
20:24 < vsayer> podcast concerning?
20:24 < MarkT> We are yes ubuntu
20:24 < Grantbow> MarkT: no monopoly on podcasts, right.
20:25 < nhaines> But feel free to discuss it more on the mailing list before then, too.
20:25 < rww> Podcast discussion could go on the mailing list, too. It'd break up the OSCON traffic :P
20:25 < Flannel> Yeah, lets take it to the ML
20:25 < Flannel> Grantbow: did you want to cover the Menu topic tonight? since we've covered podcasts now too ;)
20:25 < Grantbow> Flannel: up to you
20:25 < nhaines> Last thought were we're going to shoot for once a month, have some segments and some other types of things.  I'll find a link and post about it/make a wiki page tonight.
20:25 < rww> Can we at least get an outline of the points of view about this, please?
20:26 < rww> The usergroups / menu thing, that is.
20:26 < dragon_> for presentation material, are we planning to order Ubuntu stickers?
20:27 < nhaines> dragon_: no current plans, I don't think.
20:27 < Flannel> dragon_: We'll get back to that.
20:27 < jdeslip> Isn't this the sort of thing that it is impossible to decide when there is more than one cook in the kitchen?
20:27 < Flannel> jdeslip: Which sort of thing?
20:27 < jdeslip> Why not have Grant design something and then discuss problem/improvements
20:27 < jdeslip> The Usergroup Menu
20:28 < Grantbow> jdeslip: A discussion is the first step.
20:29 < Grantbow> Flannel: do you want to cover the Menu topic tonight?
20:29 < rww> Grantbow, Flannel: again, can I get your positions on this UserGroup menu link thing? I'd like to get a basic idea of what's going on with this tonight.
20:29 < nhaines> Grantbow: so would you like to talk about it now?
20:29 < Flannel> Grantbow: I think robert... yeah.
20:29 < Flannel> what he said
20:30 < Grantbow> It was removed.
20:31 < nhaines> Grantbow: okay, if that's all you want to say about it, I guess we'll be able to get going on that without you.
20:31 < rww> It being... [[CaliforniaTeam/Projects/UserGroupContacts/Groups|Local Meetings]], right?
20:31 < nhaines> Grantbow: I definitely appreciate you brainstorming on it, though.
20:31  * rww again curses ||unreadable||][[][]diffs||
20:33 < rww> Okay, let's try it this way. Grantbow: What's your rationale for wanting it there? Flannel: What's your rationale for removing it? Both: is there a compromise position (changing the link wording, perhaps?) here?
20:33 < Flannel> I removed that link because I felt it wasn't appropriate for our Menu.  The link was to a list of LUGs all over California.  Our menu is for LoCo use.  And the link gives the false sense that those meetings are our meetings, which is something that's bad for LUGs, and bad for the LoCo.
20:33 < MarkT> Lugs vs locos is it a split vote again?
20:33 < Flannel> MarkT: What?
20:34 < MarkT> this channel is Ubuntu
20:34 < Flannel> That page is there so we can list groups we need to talk to for our User Groups Contacts project
20:34 < Grantbow> I proposed alternatives and the discussion was declined so I put it on the agenda.
20:34 < MarkT> lugs are secondary
20:34 < Flannel> LUGs are different than LoCos
20:34 < MarkT> ubuntu is secondary at lugs
20:34 < rww> Grantbow: can you say those alternatives again? I can't find my notes on this (hence me asking questions about it all) right now.
20:34 < Flannel> there's no better/worse, they're different.
20:35 < nhaines> MarkT: we're talking about the menus on our team page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam
20:35 < Grantbow> Our goals on wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam specifically talk about LUGs.
20:36 < nhaines> Grantbow: what do they say about LUGs?
20:36 < Grantbow> I think people that come to the site that live in California would appreciate knowing where the closest ones to where they live are.
20:36 < Grantbow> Hopefully more than just Flannel and I have opinions about this.
20:36 < MarkT> So someone at OSCON from a Lug can talk about puppy Linux?
20:37 < Flannel> MarkT: This isn't about OSCON.  But, yes? I imagine they could.
20:37 < Grantbow> How it was implemented seemed appropriate to me or with an alternative link text.
20:37 < nhaines> MarkT: yes, I've discussed other distros fairly and favorably at SCaLE at the booth before.
20:37 < Grantbow> I'm open to talking about other implementations and have solicited such discussions.
20:37 < MarkT> cool
20:38 < Flannel> MarkT: We actually (as a LoCo) have no qualms about suggesting other distros when Ubuntu isn't suitable.  We've done it in the past, etc.
20:38 < MarkT> so gidget kitchen could be listed
20:38 < Flannel> MarkT: but, this isn't really relevant to the current discussion
20:38 < nhaines> Grantbow: I'm not comfortable with that list being on our menu.  If I remember correctly, this wasn't a verified list.
20:38 < MarkT> I'm just trying to see if this is relevant to gk
20:38 < rww> nhaines: "verified" meaning?
20:38 < Grantbow> rww, what's your opinion?
20:38 < Flannel> MarkT: We can talk later, but yes.  All LUGs in CA are relevant for that list.
20:39 < Grantbow> Joe's traveling unfortunately.
20:39 < nhaines> rww: I remember that we were trying to gather leads so we could establish relationships with LUGs, but that the information was not all known-good.
20:39 < rww> My take on this is that "Local Meetings" make it sound like our local meetings, which isn't correct. I'm thinking that renaming the link would definitely help.
20:39 < MarkT> fair enough - it would be consensus if we were included
20:40 < Flannel> The LUG comment on the front page talks about meeting/collaborating with LUGs (because they can use us for talks, etc).
20:40 < MarkT> we have meetings in 3 locations
20:40 < Grantbow> nhaines: I can walk you through both pages, the Groups list and the project page with verified contacts.
20:40 < MarkT> always about Linux - mostly Ubuntu
20:40  * kendrick catches up
20:40 < rww> I don't remember whether it was under Get Involved before, but if not then moving it there and naming it "Visit local LUGS" or something like that would be a start. Then we go from "this is misleading" to "should this project be highlighted separately from other projects".
20:41 < Grantbow> Flannel: I see a link in the menu as a form of collaboration.  Most lugs talk about Ubuntu specifically.
20:41 < Flannel> But, having LUGs linked from our Menu easily confuses the difference between them.  I can see someone who wants to participate in our LoCo going to a LUG listed (if it were on the menu) and thinking they were going to one of our meetings,
20:41 < Grantbow> among other things
20:41 < Flannel> rww: It was "Local Meetings" under Get Involved
20:41 < Grantbow> Flannel: the wording can mitigate any confusion you perceive.
20:41 < Flannel> Grantbow: A full sentence isn't condusive to a menu
20:41 < Grantbow> Flannel: changing the link text from "Local Meetings" to something else.
20:42 < rww> Flannel: I'm not convinced that we'd need a full sentence, though.
20:42 < rww> Grantbow: any suggestions?
20:42 < nhaines> I haven't heard anything that would be unambiguous.
20:42 < Flannel> The point of that page was to give us a list of LUGs for members to contact, so we can have relationships with them and give talks, etc.
20:43 < rww> (at least so we have something to ponder; I'm guessing we should move this to the ML soon so we can go back to OSCON.)
20:43 < Grantbow> rww: I can brainstorm some for the mail list if that's something that will be read.
20:43 < nhaines> I think we do the LUGs a disservice if we misrepresent them.
20:43 < Flannel> Right.  People are going to be unhappy if they go to a LUG meeting and find out that it's not the LoCo
20:44 < rww> Maybe changing the text on the linked page itself would help with that?
20:44 < Grantbow> Accurate representation is of course important, of course.
20:44 < Grantbow> You can delete things or help make them better.
20:45 < Grantbow> Either way it seems it
20:45 < Grantbow> 's handled.
20:45 < jdeslip> Perhaps I am too new to this group to really deserve an opinion on this.  But, I think the link would be appropriate and useful to visitors.  Just call it 'Other Local Groups' or something.
20:45 < nhaines> The LUGs are going to be unhappy.  :)
20:45 < Grantbow> nhaines: how do you know?
20:45 < Flannel> Grantbow: handled, because you're going to brainstorm and submit suggested wordings to the ML, correct?
20:45 < Grantbow> Flannel: I can do that if it will be read, sure.
20:45 < rww> '''These meetings are for Linux User Groups in California, not for the California LoCo team itself. See LoCoWorkingWithOtherGroups.''' above the table itself seems unambiguous, for example.
20:45 < rww> Grantbow: it will
20:46 < nhaines> Grantbow: because I've discussed LoCo/LUG relations with members of other groups, and with a LUG leader.
20:46 < jdeslip> I think LUGs generally appreciate any advertisement they get.  Just don't call it n ubuntu only group and it is cool.
20:46 < kendrick> oscon, please? :)
20:46 < Flannel> Grantbow: Nothing on the ML doesn't get read.  I don't know where you get that opinion.
20:46 < Grantbow> one?  kk
20:47 < Flannel> alright, so, shall we move back to OSCON?
20:47 < Grantbow> Flannel: you very strongly implied no alternative text would be acceptable to you and I didn't want any effort of mine deleted again.
20:48 < Flannel> Grantbow: No, I said your proposed alternative text would not be appropriate either.
20:49 < Flannel> But, we can discuss this after the meeting.
20:49 < Grantbow> I have logs I can quote later, this is obviously personal and I again extend another invitation to discuss it with you privately.
20:50 < nhaines> I don't think further discussion along these lines is going to be constructive.
20:51 < nhaines> Let's move on to OSCON discussion now.  There are many who are ready to continue discussion about the booth.
20:51 < nhaines> Flannel: is that a wrap for this meeting?
20:51 < Flannel> nhaines: OSCON can happen in or out of the meeting, yeah.
20:52 < Flannel> Considering its already 9, it's probably pertinent to end.
20:52 < MarkT> Grantbow: I'll call You mon
20:52 < Grantbow> let's wrap the formal meeting as it's very late.
20:53 < MarkT> All hail Tux the Magnificent!
20:53 < Grantbow> Flannel: Thank you for your work in hosting and conducting the meeting.
20:53 < Flannel> Alright, so.  Thats it for this meeting.  Our next meeting is in two weeks.  On the 28th.  7pm.
20:53 < Flannel> Our OSCON discussion, along with a few others, will appear on the ML
20:53 < nhaines> Rmemeber, that means that when we're done discussing OSCON here, we need to bring it to the mailing list.  ;)
20:53 < jdeslip> ok
20:54 < Flannel> Thank you all for coming.  See you in two weeks.

CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/09June14 (last edited 2009-08-03 05:32:42 by rww)